Courage, Culture & Tough Calls

Jason · 00:00Welcome to the Numbers Game. I'm here with Nick, and today we've actually got another one of our guest episodes, and we've been joined by someone who's lived through some of the toughest moments in sports and business. This person is a leadership strategist, CEO, advisor and founder of Design, CEO. We have Cameron Schwab.

Jason · 00:15He is an organization dedicated to helping leaders grow, lead with authenticity, and build high performing cultures. Now, if you're an a FL fan, you're probably familiar with Cameron's story of starting as the youngest CEO ever in a FL history. At 24 years old, he was the CEO of the Richmond Football Club, and then went on to be the CEO of Melbourne and f Freemantle through arguably some of the toughest times through their, uh, histories of those clubs.

Jason · 00:42Um, he's cleared millions of debt. He's rebuilt supporter engagement, he's grown revenue, and he's learned firsthand what leadership looks like in high pressure, high stake environments. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Cameron Schwab to the show.

Cameron Schwab · 00:54Oh, thanks very much Jason. And, and, uh, thanks very much Nick.

Cameron Schwab · 00:57Good to meet you all. Thanks.

Jason · 00:58Coming on. Great to have you here. And, uh, I wanted to start off with, uh, you know, you've got quite an epic background. You've got quite a journey. But if, if I ask you what are you most proud of? What comes to mind?

Cameron Schwab · 01:10Yeah, it's great question. Um, I think, I think the first thing I think is, is pride sort of can cut both ways a little bit.

Cameron Schwab · 01:16Sometimes pride can get in the road of some important things, you know, we can be too proud to, to own up. Too proud to admit too proud to, um, recognize that the world's always gonna throw stuff at us, which is, um, something different to what we would've hoped and expected. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm thinking of pride in a love sense.

Cameron Schwab · 01:37You know that as in something that you actually would reflect on from a place of. From a place of love or a place of decency rather than a place of ego, would probably, um, be my, my first take on it. So I think probably, um, uh, the raising of children is, is always the thing that I, I reflect. You know, firstly, firstly on that I've got, uh, children now that I've got, uh, a relationship with that I'm, I'm pleased that I have got, um, we certainly don't live outta each other's pockets, but we we're, we're, we're definitely there, uh, for the moments that matter.

Cameron Schwab · 02:11Um, and then in terms of the work I've done, it's, it's, it's probably just the fact that, uh, the, the organizations and the clubs, one that I was really proud to have had been given the opportunity that I had to actually lead those clubs as, as a CEO. And, and the one thing about sporting clubs is that it's very much a shared leadership model.

Cameron Schwab · 02:29You have, you have presidents, you have boards, you have CEOs, you have coaches. So it's, there's a, there's a complexity inside that, um. That you've been able to, um, sort of carry the weight forward would be the way I'd describe it, that there's, you know, when, when you take on a role like that, there's obviously a lot which has gone before you and, you know, say for instance the Melbourne Football Club was, you're sitting in the same chair, you know, in a metaphoric sense as the person who.

Cameron Schwab · 02:56Who created the game itself, which is a guy by the name of Tom Wheels wrote The First Rules of Football, who, and then the Melbourne Football Clubs formed, he's the first secretary of the club. The secretary's become, the general managers, become the CEOs. It's just title inflation. Same job really in, in, in lots of ways.

Cameron Schwab · 03:10But that you actually sat in the same chair as the person who, who for, you know, I'm sure he had no idea what it would actually become, but you know, that you, you know, there's, there's a weight which he created and then was carried forward by a lot of remarkable people over a long period of time. And I'd like to think that I carried that weight forward.

Cameron Schwab · 03:28Mm. In a way where it was, um, you know, it certainly wasn't all positive, that's for sure. Um, and very much readily own up to the, the areas and the mistakes that you make. Mostly areas of judgment, I would think. Um, but I was able to carry the weight forward that those clubs were able to benefit from at least the period of time that, that, that I was there in some tangible, tangible way and.

Cameron Schwab · 03:53And, you know, but never, never, ever overestimating your own little piece of history as well. So it's, um, you know, I felt very honored just to have been given the opportunities. That I did to actually work in the game that I loved in environments, which a lot of people loved and cared for. Um, and were able to have some moments and share those moments together.

Cameron Schwab · 04:13But I think it's that idea of carrying the weight forward, which is the thing that I think perhaps most about now to, I'm now 61. So you probably get that, you know, you've had more of life to actually reflect upon. Um, and that's what I think about. Does that make sense? It's, it's a, it's a fairly, I hope it's not too esoteric and vague, but I I think as you get older, you, you're more.

Jason · 04:33No, no

Cameron Schwab · 04:34more. You think more about that? Yeah. I don't, I don't think there's too many people

Jason · 04:36I could throw a question that deep at and expect them to be able to reel and answer off. So, and even as you're talking, I think, you know, a few nods from Nick who's recently become a father as well and probably can start to appreciate Yeah.

Jason · 04:46Oh, congratulations. The varying difference between proud of, you know, business accomplishments and, you know, career accomplishments versus being a dad, but might pastor Nick to, to take it from there.

Nick · 04:56We see, even see it obviously with myself and even people that work in our business becoming apparent, it's your whole perspective on life changes almost, um, for everyone that will Yeah.

Nick · 05:06A little bit different, but, um, definitely

Cameron Schwab · 05:09no, I think it does, it does, it is different for different people and, and I think. Yeah, and I, I think probably the perspective you bring is, is the recognition of the role your own parents played in your own life. You know, that, that somehow, if you're not guilty, you think of that as being different to the role that you get to then play in someone else's life.

Cameron Schwab · 05:30You know, that, you know, there's, there's no doubt that the two major influences on, on my life were, were, were my mom and my dad, and, and definitely came from, you know, a position of privilege in that I had two loving parents, you know, as a starting point. And, you know, and I, I know that's not something, that's something that we can't take for granted.

Cameron Schwab · 05:49And, and, and probably the two enduring loves of my life in the things that I got to do and be, um, football was through my father, who was a very, very prominent person in the game. And, and I got to have an exposure to the sport, you know, at a, at a much deeper level than perhaps most people would've had.

Cameron Schwab · 06:08And, and my mum's, uh, an artist and a, and a painter. And, and I, I got to study fine art. I did that later in life, but I was, it was always part of. Who I am. And I think I've, in some ways I've got to combine the two things because I think creativity is such an important aspect of, of what we do as leaders, which is often very much underestimated in, in regard to that.

Cameron Schwab · 06:31Um, but you know, I, I think both my parents were creative, but in different ways in mum, in the more traditional way that we would view creativity. But my father had an enormous influence on the game, was the reason why we have things like salary caps and drafts and a national competition and these things.

Cameron Schwab · 06:45He was at the A FL when, oh, the VFL becoming the A FL. He was the, you know, executive commissioner of the A ffl during that period of time. So, so that's why I talk about that idea of privilege is that they. I got, I was, I was, didn't lack for love, that was for sure. And, but I also didn't lack, uh, you know, they, they shared with me, you know, the things that, um, you know, their love of something, uh, which I then got to carry forward as well.

Nick · 07:11And I, and I, and I think the, um, the thing for me, Cameron, has been just the realization of the responsibility that you hold and you just said it then, but the impact that you're gonna have on that child's outcome, um, and, and life. So it's almost like this wow moment where there's. Ultimate responsibility.

Nick · 07:33Um, obviously there's, you know, with business and whatnot, there's other levels of responsibility, but you're dealing with adults who, you know, also need to, to bear some of that responsibility themselves. So when someone is so vulnerable and it's pretty much all, all up to you, um, yeah, it's very, um, it's a, it's a big change.

Nick · 07:52It's a big change.

Cameron Schwab · 07:53Yeah. Well, well, one of my favorite lines I do throw at my kids. I say, if it's nature or nurture, it's both my fault. But at some stage you've gotta work your own shit out. So that's,

Jason · 08:02you know, so

Cameron Schwab · 08:03there there is that, there is, there's the, the nature comes obviously via the DNA, the nurture comes from the, you know, you know how good we were and the mis, you know, and don't worry, you make lots of mistakes along the way as much as you try.

Cameron Schwab · 08:18And, and it is also often at a phase of life where you're actually trying to be good at something else, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, you know, it, it's at a time where probably the most productive. Period of your working life really is in that, that parenting phase as well, where, where you get to actually have hopefully, um, make enough impact, get good enough at something that it can actually carry you forward in a, probably in a different way.

Cameron Schwab · 08:45Often. I, I think the first phase of, you know, probably up until your, your early to mid forties is often is the, from the, the time we probably, you know, we are conscious of. Of a life beyond school, you know, in the formal structures. And we, we realize we have to be something or do something. Um, I think that first up until that phase is the getting good phase.

Cameron Schwab · 09:06Whereas after that it's more the making good, you know, it's more about your wisdom and it's more about, you know, what you actually bring from the experiences of getting good, you know? And, and one of the things that we have to get good at is parenting. And then when your kids get to a certain phase, it, it tends to be more the wisdom that you bring for them in their adult life.

Cameron Schwab · 09:25And, and I love the conversations I get to have with my kids now because they're experiencing adult things and, you know, you actually get to play a role a little bit more. You, you've got, there's obviously integrity in the relationship 'cause we love it comes from a place of love, but there's also perhaps insight that you can actually help them as they find their own way through, um, you know, their own experiences of, of trying to create a career and trying to create a life for themselves.

Nick · 09:48Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think I. I'd, uh, I'd suggest your forties. The way I've been thinking, thinking about that's, that's where you capitalize on everything you've done. It's time to kind of make good. Yeah. And, um, yeah, almost bring everything together, you know?

Cameron Schwab · 10:04If we're not careful though, we sta we still sort of get caught up in a bit of the tick the box.

Cameron Schwab · 10:08I have to have done a certain thing by a certain stage and um, I went back to uni in the fifties and studied fine art, which was not part of the plan. I can, I can assure you and uh, you know, but it was, you know, I wouldn't have swapped that one for anything and yeah. And I get to, you know, get the benefit of that still, you know, as we were talking about before,

Jason · 10:26I guess on, on the, you know, the age and doing things a little bit different uni in your fifties.

Jason · 10:31Um, probably, you know, for, for a bit of background, um, Cameron presented and Nick, I don't if I told you as well, but Cameron presented at the CPA retreat down in Hawkeye, um, fantastic presentation. I think it was, um, in the arena or leading, leading in the arena. Um, was the, you know, the, the title of the presentation, but one of the things I, I wasn't, you know, a big a FL fan, but haven't necessarily, you know, known a great deal about, you know, your background or anything specific around CEOs and a FL clubs.

Jason · 10:55But, you know, I'd, I'd love, you know, for a bit of context from the journey of, you know, where you started, the position you got to, and then, you know, going into later life now around design, CEO. But take us back to 1988, where as a 24-year-old you become, you know, the CEO of the Richmond Football Club. You know, how, how does someone at the age of 24 get that amount, that amount of responsibility?

Cameron Schwab · 11:17Yeah. Well, you wouldn't do it probably now, and I, I don't think it will happen again. It was, it was. Again, it's often situation and circumstances, you know, opportunities, you know, you know, often are, are there. And one of the, one of the concepts I really, and I, I coach, taught a little bit now is this idea of you're never ready.

Cameron Schwab · 11:32You know, this, this, you know, the, if you, you spend your life waiting to be ready. And, and the con conversation often is, were you ready? Well, clearly at that age, you're not in, in, in terms of a lot of the things, the role's actually gonna help you. And I. I was actually quite ready in other ways, which might sound unusual a little bit because of the, the background that I had that, that I, I grew up in and around the game at a pretty heavy level.

Cameron Schwab · 11:55My father before going to the, to the VFL as it was then was the secretary of the Richmond Football Club. You know, as I said, title inflation, CEO. And it was also, it was a period of time where Richmond were the greatest club. You know, they were the big club, um, had an enormous rivalry with Carlton during that period, but they basically exchanged premierships for the best part of 10 years.

Cameron Schwab · 12:14And, you know, it's a, it's very, um. Uh, it's a, it's, it's still a rivalry, which, you know, is, is, is spoken about within, within those clubs. So there were three times in my childhood that I can remember that I woke up on a Sunday morning and the Premiership Cup, the Tigers had won the day before was sitting on our kitchen table.

Cameron Schwab · 12:32You know, that's, that's, that's basically the life I had. And, and so each, each, you know, regularly, uh, mostly on Sunday mornings, all games were played on Saturdays that, um, the Great Richmond coach of that era, a fellow, the name of Tom Hay, who's an iconic person in the game, would, we'd either come around to our place or we'd go around to his place or they'd been at the punt road over in Richmond and, and Dad and Tommy, no replay, would almost replay the game to themselves.

Cameron Schwab · 12:57And, and I'd be sitting there as a. As a young fella and I'd be taking it all in and, 'cause I just, the, the game, I fell in love with the game before. Perhaps I fell in love with anything. You know, I think superheroes might've been about the same time. You know, I love still and still do love my Batman. And one of the major connections I have with, you know, my youngest is through, is the superheroes actually.

Cameron Schwab · 13:18That's the, that's. Things we, we, uh, we have still have conversations about. Sounds silly, but it, it is. Um, and then I was watching, there was a show on television called World of Sport, and, and it was basically a roundup of whatever happened the day before. And there was a great Richmond person by the name of Kevin Sheet.

Cameron Schwab · 13:35He was a great Richmond player and, and he was on the handball championship and he was explaining how he handball the game. And, and after that, the championship, he was described as a student of the game. That's how they described him, that Kevin, she, he's a student of the game. And I remember looking just, and I was probably 10 or 11 and thinking, that's the thing.

Cameron Schwab · 13:51I wanna be, I, I wanna be a student of the game. And, and I, I never had any. Sense that it would take me anywhere because I'd go into my father's work on school holidays, and that was at the Punt Road oval, and he was almost the only person working there full-time, which is, it shows you how much the game's changed, but this is the best club in the competition with basically with one or two full-time people.

Cameron Schwab · 14:11So I, I don't think of myself as having any prospects of a career in the sport, but then halfway through year 12, with no real sense of what I wanted to do, there's an ad in the paper for a job titled Assistant to the Football Manager of the Melbourne Football Club. It wasn't assistant football manager, it was assistant to, so it was like, just, I'm, I'm gonna help this person out, basically.

Cameron Schwab · 14:31And very, the very first day and I get the job and my surname being Schwab probably played a fairly major role in it. Not, not just on sort of the, the sort of the, the nepotism of we're gonna look after the, you know, the, one of the, the highest profile people in the game's son. But I think they did recognize that I had grown up in quite a unique way, you know, in, in this, in this sense.

Cameron Schwab · 14:52And the coach of the club's, Ron Bari. He probably is the most famous name the game's ever produced. So I go from Tom Hafe to Ron Bari in, in, and I'm 18 years of age and, and I'm watching him coach one day or or edit. He's, he's, he's using a video to coach the players and if the meeting goes from. For an hour, I reckon half of the meetings rom bssi rewinding and fast forwarding the video tape.

Cameron Schwab · 15:17So, and I brought, and the other thing I love is music, like a lot of people, and I used to make mix tapes, tape to tape, and you'd make these mixed tapes. And I offered to edit out Ros's tapes for him. And I did that and he looked at me like I was a freaky genius when I just turned up with his tape that I did edit it out.

Cameron Schwab · 15:32And I'm like now, like almost the technology manager of the Melbourne Free Club and I'm 18, you know, this is all happening for me, but it puts me in daily conversation with, with Ron. 'cause he would, I'd then actually say to him at different times, there was another time that happened or this would, I put that he just kept on encouraging me if I saw something in the game when I was editing it just to put it on the tape.

Cameron Schwab · 15:51And, and so he had this enormous and, and I think almost. Without any shadow of doubt is the most important things which have ever happened to me are when people have seen things in me that I had yet to see in myself. And, and Ron then suggested I go recruiting. And I thought recruiting was for, you know, these Yoda figures in footy, you know, these wise old people.

Cameron Schwab · 16:14But I'm like 18 or 19, and by the time I'm 20, I'm a full-time recruiting person at Melbourne. And I was the first one to do that at the club. I started to get a little bit of a rep and I could tap on the shoulder one day. Would you'd be interested in coming to Richmond? I thought it was to do recruiting.

Cameron Schwab · 16:27And they said, no, no, we want you to be the CEO. And, and it and Richmond at that point had, they'd won the premiership, uh, seven years earlier, but they're, by now, they're on the bottom of the ladder and they're also broke. They're going outta business, basically one of the most powerful clubs in the competition.

Cameron Schwab · 16:42It was a, it was a huge fall. And, and the thing is, and you guys that relate to this is that I went straight from school. I didn't do a business subject at school. Um, and I knew there were two things, which seemed important, but that, that one was called a profit and loss statement. The other one was called a balance sheet, but I had no idea what I owe them.

Cameron Schwab · 17:02Were, you know, so, but I was at the, I was at the meeting where they're interviewing me for the role, and I said, doc, can I see them? And, and, you know, and the next meeting we catch up and they do, and I look at them and have no idea what I'm looking at. But I could tell by all the worried looks of the people in the room that it wasn't very good.

Cameron Schwab · 17:17So, so I said, I said, it's not very good, is it? And they said, no, it's not. Um, and I remember ringing my dad up on the way home and I said, dad, I don't think it's a very good job. You know, they're, they're last on the ladder, they're broke. And he said, and he always called me Chy. My whole. Dad was, it was China.

Cameron Schwab · 17:32China plate mate, rhyming slang, China, you know, I'm, I'm your, your my little mate, so you're a China plate. So I was just, I was just China. Yeah. And, and I still love the fact that that happened, you know, and I said, dad, I don't think it's a very good job. And he said, he said, China, if it was a very good job, they wouldn't be asking you.

Cameron Schwab · 17:48This is exactly what he said to me. And, and he, and, and in saying it, he was totally right. But the, the best jobs are the ones which in many cases aren't the very good jobs. And then he was very reassuring of what I brought and. And how, and I, and I just loved the tigers and so I did it for seven years and it was a very defining period of, of life obviously to do something like that.

Cameron Schwab · 18:12The club, we managed to do a few things and that's that idea of the weight carried forward. We did a thing called the SOS campaign, which, you know, the saved the club. We made the finals for the first time in a long time. Um, and so I think that is the idea of the weight carried forward, but it was also a time my father actually died suddenly.

Cameron Schwab · 18:28So I, that happened during, during that period as well. He, he misadventure would probably be the best way of describing how he, how he died and, and he was a Richmond iconic Richmond person. So there was just a lot of things happening for me at that, at that phase of, of my life. So I, I have this, um, I, I remember enormous amount of lessons learned, but I basically had my lifetime job at, between the ages of 24 and 31.

Cameron Schwab · 18:57Yeah. And, and so I'm. I got to do be the CEO of two other clubs and had just as much passion and love and care and all of that for those clubs. 'cause I did. Um, but it was always going to be, I knew that it was always gonna be probably the context from which the rest of my career would be measured in one way or another.

Nick · 19:19So, so on, on that journey, obviously some, some amazing roles and, you know, Jay mentioned earlier, but, um, going in and clearing debt and we all know what that can do, um, to a business's cashflow and viability. And then driving revenues, you know, 300% plus obviously amazing. Um, well turn them into amazing businesses I guess.

Nick · 19:41Um, but you know, being around sport clubs myself as, um, as I was younger, un like understanding the value culture and leadership have. Um, and particularly I'm just thinking about you coming into a job like that at age. 24, like the culture, I can assume the culture wasn't great at Richmond when you went in there.

Nick · 20:01Neither the leadership, but what, like, you've obviously been able to transfer that or change that. So what, what are the key things that you've learned over the years in, in regards to culture and leadership, and then how do they relate to business? Because it's the same really. Um, sporting clubs and business to a degree.

Cameron Schwab · 20:21Yeah. I, I think there's a danger in definition that, um, I think of culture as an outcome. That that's the first thing. Yeah. I think of team as an outcome. So what, what are the inputs basically? Well, well who you letting in the room's the biggest input. Yeah. You know, so who you letting in the room and why they're there.

Cameron Schwab · 20:42You know, are they there for the right reasons? And I think sometimes we overrate the importance of how team based we have to actually be, you know, there's some people say we wanna be a great team here, whereas really. You know, and then I actually ask 'em to describe what sort of team they want to be. You know, do, are they a, you know, are they a great relay team?

Cameron Schwab · 21:02You know, that means just do your job really well. Hand it over really well. It's a different dynamic, for example, than being a great cricket team, which is much more individually based and very binary in if you're not making runs, you can't play type scenario. Whereas the football codes are very team oriented as, you know, I might have to sacrifice my role for you.

Cameron Schwab · 21:22You know, and you know, very often, you know, I can remember with, say for instance, when I was at Fremantle, you know, we had a couple of, you know, staff forward, Matthew Pavlich, you know, Jeff Farmer, were great players of that era. And they might say, oh, you know, pav was quiet today. And I say, yeah, but Chris Main kicked six.

Cameron Schwab · 21:38You reckon that didn't happen without Matthew Pavlis there, you know, and so it is, it's much more team and sacrifice than that. So, so working out what sort of culture you need to drive the strategy or the thing you're seeking to achieve, and there's an old saying, culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I used to roll that out, like I was some sort of expert.

Cameron Schwab · 21:55Then I realized it was bullshit. And then, uh, so, and I, and I got to study at Harvard with the bloke who actually wrote that, you know, so that's, which is quite amazing because I, I think strategically we have to choose what sort of culture we need to build and have to actually achieve the thing that we're seeking to achieve.

Cameron Schwab · 22:11And clearly in a football club, um, there, there are, there are also, there cultures in their subcultures. The, the, the culture we need to build within the football team whilst there'll be shared values and shared expectations is a very different culture that we build in our marketing department or our community team or our finance area, what, whatever it might be.

Cameron Schwab · 22:29And, and so we, we, we do agree and we. We, we, we, we agreed to a set of principles by which we are going to, you know, seek to achieve the thing that we're seeking to achieve. Um, we align to those principles, but we actually recognize that, that things like conflict and the ambiguity and uncertainty and all of these things are a natural, um, context, a context for, if you like, any environment, which is in a high performance world, such as elite sport.

Cameron Schwab · 23:06And, and so one of the things which I, it took me too long to work out is that you can't trust your feelings, but you can learn to trust your principles. As in often your feelings will betray you at different times. You know, they'll take you to a place of anger or they'll take you to a place of, you know, ego or whereas.

Cameron Schwab · 23:29I say, if you're clear on your principles, if you learn to operate and work and remind yourself of those, and we all agree with those. So it's really if we've got a principle of, you know, even courage and even ideas around authenticity. Well, authenticity I think of is an outcome. You can't be authentic unless you're prepared to be vulnerable.

Cameron Schwab · 23:49'cause that's the human condition. And there's no vulnerability without, without courage. So if we say, okay, one of the expectations is, um, that you're gonna be, if you're gonna lead here, you're gonna have to be a courageous leader. And, but fear will, genuine. Fear will kick in. There will be times you will be fearful.

Cameron Schwab · 24:10You'll be fearful of a conversation you have to have. Like, I've had to have conversations with coaches where I tell them that you're no longer coach of the club and you don't, and you don't sleep very well that night. But the one thing I've learned is it's much harder to. Be told that than to tell that.

Cameron Schwab · 24:29And, and so you have that empathy then for it. But that, but that will ask for bravery, you know? And so when, so I hope this is not a long-winded way, but I, I don't think at any stage can you outperform what you bring as a leader. And often if you've got your hands on the levers, like a CEO does, the culture will be the outcome of how you play that hand if you like, you know, um, and you know, there's, there, there are so many different cultures.

Cameron Schwab · 25:02Which have been born out of different, and people will often say, I want a culture like that one over there. I go, yeah, we can learn from it. And I, and I've got to study with, you know, Barcelona and the All Blacks and, you know, Liverpool and Everton and Green Bay Packers and all these great clubs, you know, which have been admired for their culture.

Cameron Schwab · 25:21And you certainly learn from it. But the one thing I worked out is you can't put it in a suitcase and bring it home with you. You've gotta create your own version of that. And so if you and I, if all of us created a, a, a business together, well, it's going to be in one way or another, at least in part, an expression of our collective behaviors.

Cameron Schwab · 25:45And so therefore we say, what are the behaviors we want to really focus on here? What are the important behaviors? And, and I think they go to ideas around principles such as calm, brave, humble, compassionate. I think those are universal. I reckon because they're the things that it's gonna ask of you in a moment when you're gonna feel fear or you're gonna get yourself into a place where you're not bringing the best of yourself.

Cameron Schwab · 26:13'cause you know, there's, you know, the, the red haze is, you know, just crossed the, you know, you've got angry or whatever it might be. And so therefore you bring people into your organization who you know, can align and it's not necessarily agree 'cause agrees a bit different. We're gonna argue at different times, we get that, but are are gonna align with the principles.

Cameron Schwab · 26:36Of the organization. And at least if we do that, we are gonna get a culture which works for us. But it'll be very different to the one down the road, or it'll be different, you know? You know, Geelong's had a great culture. Hawthorne's had a great culture. The Swans have had a great culture. Brisbane have had a great culture, but I can guarantee they're all different in their own way.

Cameron Schwab · 26:53And, um, and that's okay. Uh, there's, there's, we've gotta create a culture which works for us.

Jason · 27:00The, the words that kind of stuck out to me, you know, and again, talk about culture and that then it becomes about the principles. Well, the people who need to show great principles become the leaders. And without a great leader, you probably struggle to have, you know, a well run great organization, whether a football club or a business.

Jason · 27:18Um, I guess then o over your time and in the work you do now, when you talk about, you know, forming great leaders, coaching great leaders, pretty, pretty broad again, but what, what in your view, makes a great leader? And I know you touched on the word authenticity and then there's vulnerability. Um, but you know Yeah.

Jason · 27:33From your, from the work you do, what do you see as the key parts of being a great leader?

Cameron Schwab · 27:38They know who they are. They, they absolutely know who they are. They do the work to know who they are. And, and it's, I bring this, but I don't bring that. You know, to, to realize that you're not the smartest person in the room.

Cameron Schwab · 27:55There's gonna be, you know, there's, there's gonna be some things you're gonna have insight into and others that you're not to, to recognize that you may be being experienced in ways that are different to your intention. And if you're not careful, you'll be the last person to ever find that out, you know?

Cameron Schwab · 28:11So, you know, I've got a book, which is, I'm writing at the moment. No one tells the CEO their baby's ugly. You know, that, that it is, if you're not ke you can just operate in isolation of Mm. And so if you can't do the work and be clear on who you are and what you bring, um, I don't think you can lead. And, and it was that, that, that idea, which, you know, perhaps, you know, when I went to Richmond as a young person, is that I almost created some avatar of my, what I thought a leader should be, because.

Cameron Schwab · 28:4724, you know, and we'd often get reminded of this, the male brain doesn't really kick in until between 25 and 30 in, in a true sense. And that's not being unkind, but I think it's just evolution really. And you're asked is a, is a certainly less than a fully formed voice. So I had, uh, a certain level of maturity and understanding and insight into aspects of the role.

Cameron Schwab · 29:10But clearly I didn't know who I was. And it was actually a wonderful person by the name of Francis Burke, great Richmond player who coached Richmond, who. Who coached only for two years, one of which was a grand final, and then coached them out of the finals and got the sack the next year, like one of the greatest ever to play for Richmond.

Cameron Schwab · 29:26Um, and he, and he said, he and I talked to him, and I almost was coming from this place of empathy and oh, you know, you were really unlucky. You got sacked after two years. He said, no, I wasn't. No, I wasn't. He said, he said, you know, maybe I would've learned this. He said, but the, the lesson I learned was that every time I faced into a situation, I'd ask, what would Ron Bari do?

Cameron Schwab · 29:46Or what would David Parkin do? What would Tom Hoey do? What would one of these great coaches do? The question I never asked myself is, what would Francis, what should Francis Burke do? And, and I remember hearing that thinking he was this guy who I put on this enormous pedestal and this wonderful vulnerability in what he was actually saying there, who.

Cameron Schwab · 30:03He's such a revered figure at the football club. They call him St. Francis, St. Francis, you know, he's just, and he's now well into his seventies. And, you know, I I, I, I live in Darford and I rang him one day and I was leaving, I was just leaving Melbourne and, and I was still talking to him as my car pulled into the garage in Darford, you know, like an hour and a half later.

Cameron Schwab · 30:23And, and it's these sorts of conversations that we have. And so he's a guy who even with everything that he'd done, he was basically saying he wasn't sure what he brought. And so how, how could he coach or take on such a big role without that sense? And maybe that penny would've dropped if they'd given him more time.

Cameron Schwab · 30:40And I'm, I'm certain that it perhaps would've, but that's his humility in saying that. So the first thing you have to do is figure out who you are. If you can't put into the work the working into figuring out who you are, um, it's gotta, it's, it's, if it's not happening in you, it won't happen through you.

Cameron Schwab · 30:56And we externalize it so much because there's so many things that we can be measured by. We can be measured by wins and losses, profit and loss, all all those sorts of factors. But the most exploit, the most important measurement is how people are experiencing you. And, and if, if they're experiencing you in some way other than what the organization needs of you and expects of you and requires of you to lead it during whatever phase of it's development that it is, there's almost no means that can actually achieve it.

Cameron Schwab · 31:29And I don't think any organization can outperform its leadership. And so, so much of that sits with the CEO. Is the CEO leading in a way which is aligned to this? Is the CEO clear, you know, are we clear on who we are and why we do it? Are we clear on what does winning look like? Are we clear on what we need to be good at?

Cameron Schwab · 31:51You know, those four questions, they, who we are, why we do it, what does winning look like? What do we need to be good at? You know, they're really very basic questions and, and there needs to be a story around those things, which is compelling enough for the people in the organization to say, yeah, that's, I believe in that and I'm prepared to align my career to that.

Cameron Schwab · 32:13You know, I, I, I have my own podcast and I, you know, I, um. It was with Paul Marsh, who has been the CEO of the A FL Players Association and he's now CEO of this, of Australian Cricket Association, of which he was previously as well. And he's a fascinating fellow. So he he's, he's undertaking to the players.

Cameron Schwab · 32:35He's, we'll, look after your wages. Yeah, we'll look after your workplace. Yeah. But we'll also look after your wellbeing. And I'm thinking, mate, isn't that just a wonderful frame framework to use? Yeah. You, if you come and work for us, you'll get well paid, you'll get looked after. Yeah. That, that you won't miss out there.

Cameron Schwab · 32:52But with your workplace is gonna be a great place to work. You know, and in sport, you, it workplace has a different connotation. 'cause it has the potential of being unsafe. Like an Adam goods scenario became unsafe. Really. He's getting in in that way. But then the fact that the workplace was unsafe, but then it, then it impacts on wellbeing.

Cameron Schwab · 33:11And I'm thinking, so here's the CEO that the F, he says they're the things I bring. And with, you know, these 800, 900 players whose careers, you know, are aligned to that, you know, for that short period of their lives and the most, you know, obviously very impactful periods of their lives. Just to have that, isn't that just a beautiful framing?

Cameron Schwab · 33:30You know, I'm gonna, yeah, we're gonna look after your wages. You'll get well paid, but we're gonna look after your workplace so you feel good about. All the things that it's gonna ask of you, but we're also gonna look after your wellbeing. 'cause it will get hard. You know, you'll have to at some stage create a new identity for yourself when the game, the game is done with you.

Cameron Schwab · 33:49You know, the game will be done with everyone before they're done with it mostly. Mostly. Yeah. Yeah. And most careers in foot football end because of a, of a coach or a doctor tells you it's time to go. Yeah. There's,

Jason · 34:01there's, there's a lot to, there's a lot that, you know, in my own head I'm unpacking there just going like, you know, they're looking after your wellbeing in, in the workplace and how, you know, what being in that environment is like.

Jason · 34:10'cause there are a lot of hard days in business. Uh, in small business. Yeah. And organizations. Like, I think in the last couple of months alone, there's been some days where I've sat back and just gone, fuck. Like, I don't know if I can keep going. I dunno if I wanna do this anymore. I dunno if I can keep going.

Jason · 34:24Yeah. And that's, that's as the leader like being, you know Yeah. Raw, vulnerable, like. There's been some pretty, you know, yeah. And then it's, it's then rocking up the next day and showing, you know, no, you know, what is the purpose? What is the plan, what is the mission and why am I here? And what, you know, how do I show up?

Jason · 34:39But, you know, I think sometimes there's a bit of that, you know, feeling of vulnerability can be weakness. Like if, if I'm vulnerable to my team that, you know, hey, we've, it's been a tough week for me. Like I've, I've dealt with some shit. I'm not, you know, I'm not feeling the greatest about it all, but, you know, I've still gotta show up as the leader.

Jason · 34:56But, yeah. So I suppose like the, that vulnerability side versus being a great leader and, you know, is there a world where, you know, it, it, you can, you can be both, you can be vulnerable and still be a great leader.

Cameron Schwab · 35:08Yeah. No, I think there is the, the thing we have to be most vulnerable about is the errors we make, because we will make 'em.

Jason · 35:14Mm-hmm.

Cameron Schwab · 35:15And so as a CEO, if you're prepared to bring your errors into the room, I think there's two benefits to that. The first one is. You're modeling the expectation and the understanding that people do bring their mistakes into the room because one, we have to know about 'em, and two, we have to learn from them.

Cameron Schwab · 35:32And so in learning from them, you know, if the CEO brings their mistakes into the room, one, one of the things I find fascinating isn't this, is that in sport we have no hesitation of coaching players in front of each other. So if you, so, if, if Jason makes an error, it's talked about in front of Nick. And, and we do that, not to make Jason look bad, but to make sure that Nick learns the same lesson that Jason's learning.

Jason · 35:58Hmm.

Cameron Schwab · 35:58It's not, and we don't personalize it because the game's complex, the game gets, you get rattled, you know, certain things, you know, you know, and so I can assure you that if they, if, if Jason's getting feedback in front of the group, there's another five or six players in the room going, shit, I didn't know that either.

Cameron Schwab · 36:14I would've made the same mistake. But in, in business, we're much less likely to do that. And I understand. Why, but if you are the CEO and you stand up and say, look, you know, I zigged when I should have zagged. This was my thinking at the time. My thinking actually was flawed. I was operating with imperfect information.

Cameron Schwab · 36:30'cause if there's perfect information, we don't have to make a decision. The decision's made for us leadership's in the business of ambiguity. You know, the only reason we need leadership is 'cause it gets ambiguous if it's certain we don't need leadership. You know, that's just reality. And so you bring your mistakes into the room.

Cameron Schwab · 36:47The all blacks have a wonderful way of thinking about it. They say, we carve our mistakes into the wall. We carve our mistakes into the wall because we want people who aren't in this room to learn from those errors. You know, that's what legacy, that's carrying the weight forward, if you like. And so, so yes there, that will require the, the being, the not knower from, you know, whereas this first inclination when I became A CEO was, uh, I could ride in on my white horses, the person with all the answers.

Cameron Schwab · 37:15I'm 24 years of age, I've got no context for. Yeah. And as, as I spoke about, you know, the issues that Richmond were facing were financial as much as they were team performance. And here's a blog's, got no finance background at all, who's, you know, trying to fix that problem or play a role in fixing that problem.

Cameron Schwab · 37:32Um, and so it is, you know, and, and even in those moments, I don't think you've led, unless you've woken up in the morning and your first thoughts, fuck, I, I don't think you've ever had a leadership role unless you've had that sense of it, you know? And so that's, and I, and I coach Michael Voss at Cult. I do coaching work with him.

Cameron Schwab · 37:54He's a coach of Carlin and he's had a pretty challenging few, few weeks. You know, I, I can guarantee, I can guarantee people's experiences of Michael. Yeah. They'll be, yeah. He'll probably be showing the, you know, the signs that it's been pretty tough. 'cause that's just human nature. But if you were to measure him on one thing.

Cameron Schwab · 38:15One thing only and that's how he's showing up. I can guarantee it would be a positive experience 'cause that's what leadership will ask of you. 'cause the reason we wake up in the morning with that feeling, the first thought's, fuck, is that It's our emotional response to something, something happening inside us in response to something which is happening around us.

Cameron Schwab · 38:36But you are the only person who's experiencing the inside us. So you know the thing, something, what we see and hear affects how we think and feel, but we are measured by what we say and do. And that's why you do the work on you. You can every so often. Yeah. It's about gritting the teeth and moving forward.

Cameron Schwab · 38:58I get that. But it's, it's gritting the teeth and, and move moving forward as a human, not as a robot. Not, not in, not in pretend mode. And to actually come into the room and say, look, yeah mate, I'm feeling this. Don't worry about that. I'm feeling it, but I can tell you what, I can look around this room and I can see the future, the future's in this room.

Cameron Schwab · 39:17And you know, if we haven't got, if the solution's not there for us now, I'm pretty bloody sure it's in, if we dig deep enough, it's in this room somewhere and that's all you can do. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's not trying to, not to think if you think you've got the answer, yeah, take it forward. But you only ever bring one imagination to your own life.

Cameron Schwab · 39:39One set of ears, one set of eyes. The goal as leaders is to draw, is create conditions and create an environment where we can draw on the collective imaginations of everyone in the room because everyone's committed to. Bringing their imagination into the room. They're not fearful of that. They're not fearful of being wrong.

Cameron Schwab · 39:58It's not about getting your idea, it's actually about getting the best idea. And your idea might be the best idea, but we want the best idea. Not your idea, but we need to hear your idea to get the best idea.

Nick · 40:09Yeah. And I, I can really relate to that. And it's just, just, um, as a, as a practical example, like I'm 43 this year and our, our industry is going through a mass, you know, like a lot of industries are, uh, a massive change in relation to, to tech and, um, mainly ai.

Nick · 40:27And most of the leaders in this business are, are way smarter than me. Um, particularly in regards to that. And I've kind of just become this sounding board to si to almost just decipher, okay, we're thinking this, we're thinking that, and get them all in a room. And, 'cause I have got a lot of incredible young people in here and we have, um.

Nick · 40:50We have another little, um, group where all those leaders come together and, and discuss things. But, um, yeah, I'm just, I'm thinking about what you're saying because I, I can relate to it. Some of these young people are just super smart, and I'm just there trying to take it all in and digest what they're saying, um, and then point them in the right direction or challenge them on things and even make them challenge each other.

Nick · 41:13Um, yeah. So, yeah, that was, um, I was, yeah, that was, that was me.

Cameron Schwab · 41:20Um, for sure. Well, you, you've, you've touched on a couple of really important things there that, so even with coaching is, and this would be for anyone who's listening these, these are, so even if I'm coaching Michael Voss. Okay. So we're in a, in a situation, we're having a conversation.

Cameron Schwab · 41:38There's, there's four postures that I take. The first one is I'm a sounding board. Yeah. I'm a sounding board. The sounding board does rely on the person you are listening to to have a very, or almost a fully formed idea, which they can then articulate in a really clear way. Yeah. There's no point being a sounding board for someone who hasn't thought about it as an example.

Cameron Schwab · 42:07They need to have given it a lot of thought. So don't ask me to be a sounding board unless you've given it a lot of thought. Yeah. In in many ways. Yeah. The second one is, okay, it might be that you realize that it's not a fully formed idea, that there was a whole lot of things that could have been included in that thought process, which means that you do become a bit of the truth teller, which you touched upon, is to actually say, it's like people would come into the room and say, I want to be the, I want, I'm the CFO.

Cameron Schwab · 42:35I'd like to be the COO, and what that means is I'd like to do, take this work from you as the CEO. And I'd like to do more of that stuff over there. I go, that sounds like a good idea, except I actually like the stuff you want to take from me. I enjoy doing that shit. So, so that doesn't really work. So you might wanna give that a bit more thought.

Cameron Schwab · 42:57And, and the reason why you had f in your title as CFO was the F was his is pretty important for us. Yeah. So he's gonna do the F. Yeah. You know, so don't come into the room and tell me your own ambition unless you understand and recognize that a senior leader inside this organization will recognize that there's upstream and downstream in any.

Cameron Schwab · 43:21In anything that we're gonna do so often that, that might be then, I'm now the truth teller, but I, I still like the fact that the person's got the ambition that they've got. That's okay. Now, let's, I'm now an idea sharer. So the, the four, the, the first of the three postures. Uh, the first one is sounding board, the next one is truth teller.

Cameron Schwab · 43:39The third one is, I'm now an idea share. Oh, we'll now give the person something to think about. Some ideas, some frameworks and other thoughts. And if those, and then we can have a conversation around those ideas. And often it's a model or it's a, a story. It could be anything. You and, and Jason certainly speak.

Cameron Schwab · 43:54I use story as the core of the way. I, I th you know, I communicate. Um. And then the fourth po, the fourth posture is I might just be a partner with the person. We just might, let's just sit and talk about it. You haven't got the answer. I haven't got the answer. Let's, let's try and work this one out together.

Cameron Schwab · 44:13And so I really recommend those four postures for leaders. You know, sounding board, truth teller, idea share a partner, and what would the whole idea of that is to go from, you know, to, to land at what we think is the best idea. And that's the same inside, you know, a team based environment as well. But to get to best idea, we need your idea, but we want it to be a, a pretty formed idea.

Cameron Schwab · 44:35Just don't throw 'em in from the cheap seats. If you're gonna put an idea forward, make sure you can back it up. You know, make sure that it's coming from a good place, that it's not from a place of ego or, and you know that what you're actually throwing forward is also important. We can waste a lot of time on shit that doesn't matter and we, we don't wanna do that.

Cameron Schwab · 44:58Um, and those ideas that, can you back it up? Is it coming from a good place? Is it important? Is is a good way of thinking about feedback. It's a good way of thinking about ideas. It's a good way thinking about, you know, almost any interaction that you have. I even think about with my kids, you know, that, you know, the amount of times I wasted time saying, well look, when I was a teenager I did this.

Cameron Schwab · 45:16The last piece of information they want to know is what you did when you were a teenager. 'cause they can't relate to that in any shape or form. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, yeah,

Jason · 45:24I've uh, got so many different areas that I thought we would take this and wanted to go, but I'm glad that it's just kind of, uh, unpacked organically.

Jason · 45:31But there was one yeah. Uh, takeaway that I had, uh, from your presentation at the CPA retreat and uh, in Torkey. And it's kind of stuck with me and I'm keen to kind of unpack it a little bit 'cause I know that I need to walk away and do some work on it. But it's around the leadership trademark. So I was wondering if you could touch on.

Jason · 45:50Leadership trademark, what that means and, and what are some of, I guess the, the mantras or the steps that we can go to, to develop our own brand, I guess.

Cameron Schwab · 45:59Yeah. And, and these are form of brand, but it probably would be best described as a, as an overarching principle. This, this is my core principle and, and it's not necessarily something which will stay there forever.

Cameron Schwab · 46:10'cause I think we evolve and we change, my, my mine is and hasn't changed for the best part of 30 years, but it, it is. Um, but how I, it's context has, you know, 'cause I, I'm older, different things. You know, my role now as someone running my own business is different to being CEO of an AFL club. And even having adult kids is different to having young kids, that type of thing.

Cameron Schwab · 46:36So my, my, my personal trademarks finding something, this idea of finding something and initially was one of a resilience. Idea of resilience. And I'll, I'll talk to that in a minute. And the idea came to me, oh, not, it was given to me by Neil Danaher, who most people would know is, but I, how I got to know him was he was coach of Melbourne.

Cameron Schwab · 46:58I was, I was CEO of Melbourne. We appointed him, coach, and he asked me about my trademark and I really didn't have any context for it and didn't understand it. And he explained his, his, his trademark is when it's all said and done, more is said than done. That's his personal trademark when it's all said and done, more is said than done.

Cameron Schwab · 47:15And he, um, that was my experience of him as a coach. He was very much the doer. You know, I, I'll, yeah, I will tell you these are the things that are important, but I'll also back those things up and then people would probably know that he's, for the last 12 or so years, he's been, he's had, he got diagnosed a dozen or so years ago with motor neuron disease.

Cameron Schwab · 47:35Um, he's formed a charity called Fight MND, and he's now raised $140 million as a dying man. So, and for the d against the disease, which is killing him. And, and he's had an extraordinary run from the disease perspective and it's unbelievably tragic in parts of him, obviously 'cause of the way the disease is, you know, he loses parts of himself in a physical sense, you know, every day.

Cameron Schwab · 47:58And so that's the resonance of it in that sense. And so the trademark, one of my favorite lines is, you know, when I had the choice, when I had the choice, did I choose courage over comfort? Did I choose courage over comfort? And it's really the conversation that we had. 'cause leadership's gonna ask that obvious did choose courage over comfort.

Cameron Schwab · 48:19And I think the best stories, and there might be combinations of these things, the best stories of our lives are normally one of transformation. You know, I was this, I became that, you know, through either my situation or my circumstance or a choice I made. But I, I used to be this and I'm now that and, and that.

Cameron Schwab · 48:41Thing is progress. Um, the next great story I think is one of resilience. As in, I got knocked over and I picked myself up. You know, I, I was someone who, um, you know, was diagnosed with this issue. I lost my job. I, you know, I talked about losing my father, uh, these sorts of things. One, ones which we will ask you to find something within yourself, which is the reason I found, I used the word finding something and, you know, I'm really open about it.

Cameron Schwab · 49:15I've got diagnosed with clinical depression around that time, and, and I've had to, I've had to have that experience of, of, you know, figuring out who I am in the context of that. And probably more recent times I've had to deal with cancer. So there, there're things of which you have to then, you know, find something in yourself to be, and, and then the third story, I reckon is one of grit.

Cameron Schwab · 49:38I just. I just worked and worked and worked and worked and found a way. You know, so I love those stories that they're transformation, resilience, and grit. And I reckon all of us will have, you know, one of my favorite lines is it's the hard days that define us. It's the hard days that define us. And generally drawing from those hard days will be that story of resilience or grit or transformation.

Cameron Schwab · 50:02And so the way we, I, I recommend people do it, is they actually, they start writing their favorite stories just to themselves. Just, and I, and I do it in a way where it is the old fashioned way. Pen on paper, pencil and paper or whatever. Just write it down. Put your favorite music on. I think everyone should have a playlist in their life.

Cameron Schwab · 50:23A Spotify playlist, which is, and your title it. Mood changes. Mood changes. Mm. When I'm feeling fucked, everyone should have that playlist in their life. Mm. Because we know that. Music can change your mood if you're into music, and not everyone is, but I think most are, you know, and it generally will be some part of you, which is, you know, it'll go, it'll take you back to a time, it'll take you back to love.

Cameron Schwab · 50:52It'll take you back to, you know, I've heard of a few of Jason's stories, a few bloody places. He shouldn't have probably been at certain stages in the evening, you know, but when he was dancing, the dancing the night away, but the, the, and so then you just start writing. I reckon you can almost guarantee a couple of things will come from it.

Cameron Schwab · 51:15There will be a word in there or a phrase in there, or you'll come across a quote and you go, no, mine is a story of resilience. I think that's what I would have the most sense of in terms of myself. But it's also, I know I've worked hard and I, and I've transformed at different times. Even say, losing my role at Melbourne when I, I got the sack at Melbourne is the reason why I studied art and did des and created design, CEO.

Cameron Schwab · 51:36That doesn't happen. Neither of those things, two things probably occur. Um, so finding something was really important. Finding something was actually finding identity for myself beyond the game in, in lots of ways, which a lot of obviously, you know, footballers have to do, athletes have to do. So it's, it's, it's, it's choosing a time when you chose courage over comfort, then asking yourself what does it, what did it say about you?

Cameron Schwab · 52:03And then asking yourself, what would be the words I would use to describe it, which I'm then happy and feel good about writing at the top of the page every day. To start my day by writing down this thing to remind yourself on a daily basis that the best part of you. And then the next thing you do after you write your trademark down, this is only just a little 10 minute exercise every day, is you ask two questions.

Cameron Schwab · 52:26The first one's what's important? What's important? 'cause what's important. I can almost guarantee it's not in your inbox. It's not ringing you on the phone, it's not doing whatever. It's, it's some, it's you making a choice. That day is what's important. And generally, you know what's important might be also overcoming a fear.

Cameron Schwab · 52:45It might be confronting something, it might be dealing with something. And the second question is, is what's possible? What's possible? So what's important, what's possible? And just again, I do have that little playlist on listening to each day when I write it down and it is. A daily effort of figuring out who you are.

Cameron Schwab · 53:07Figuring out who you are and it, it's the first thing I coach in with the leaders I work with. Yeah, I

Jason · 53:12honestly love that already. Like the having your own mood change a playlist. I thought of the two playlists that I go back to. Um. And, and one's a mood changer for the, for not the wrong reasons or the bad reasons, but, um, there's a playlist we made for mom's funeral.

Jason · 53:28Mom passed away a few years ago. Yeah. And that was quite a time in my life, but I'll go back to that when I want to be, you know, remembering and feeling and kind of let it out. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a, and then there's a, there's a Jason Case playlist we made around our engagement party, and then our wedding, which was songs, you know.

Jason · 53:44Yeah. Of that, but yeah. Yeah. But I think that self-discovery of what's the Jason Mood Changer, playlist and, and, you know, being able to go away and make that, and, and then again, the tr the trigger, the words that you use, then, you know, we're talking about what's important, you know, and, and referencing the inbox or the phone call and like, you know, it's so easy, you know, as a busy, you know, busy person running a business, you know, everyone's got stuff going on.

Jason · 54:08But to go, hmm. It's, it's the easy choice is to just get distracted with the inbox and kind of write back to emails or, or do that Yeah. Rather than, yeah. What was the bigger, more important thing that I could focus on today and getting that outta the way is the first thing in the morning or the first thing you do and, and what's possible.

Jason · 54:23I mean, I, I, I think we naturally limit ourselves to what is possible. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and, and rather than doing that, you know, setting some, some big scope on what is possible today, what if I could get that one thing done that made me feel really good about Yeah. You know, today was a success and, and, you know.

Jason · 54:40Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think they're really easy. Good takeaways for me. Um, and a great one for the audience to kind of sit back and think about, uh, you know, what, what does that look like for them?

Nick · 54:49I think the, um, the music one resonated with me 'cause I, I am. Very much a music lover, but I've, I've just found the last few years I've gone away from it because of access to podcasts and you know, if I'm ever in the car, it's a podcast, you know, 'cause you wanna, wanna ingest information and learn.

Nick · 55:07But, um, I think one of the things with having a child is just separating that work mood, which isn't necessarily angry. It might be agitated, um, little bit stressed, um, a little bit short, you know, mind's racing. So it's only been the last couple of months and I've gone back to listening to music on the way home.

Jason · 55:28Mm-hmm.

Nick · 55:29And I didn't really think about it as changing my mood. I'm thinking about this conversation now, and that's exactly what it's doing. It was more just a, you know, detached from taking things in and stop my brain thinking. But now that listening to you talk there is definitely that mood shift. And I think I'll continue to do it because it, it puts me in a different mood.

Nick · 55:50Um, so when I get home, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm happy and I can leave whatever stress, um, I had at work. Um, and yeah, I can really relate to the busy stuff, busy.

Cameron Schwab · 56:01The great saying from Seth Godin, who's a great podcast guest. If you ever, you're gonna listen to a podcast, listen to Seth in, in that sense, I think he's just a wonderful podcast guest, but he, he's got a, he's got a line busy as the new lazy, busy as the new lazy, and, and I really, and I love that idea.

Cameron Schwab · 56:18So I, I would say in terms of the continual process, the continued things that we'll have to always overcome, I always overcome, uh, fear. Lazy fear and lazy, and I don't mean the not hardworking form of lazy 'cause I, everyone who's listening to this will go, well, I'm not lazy, I work hard, I work x amount of hours a week and all that.

Cameron Schwab · 56:41But it's lazy as in. The challenging work that you actually have to do, the deeper thinking work, the working on yourself work, the, you know, the stuff which I would describe as easy to do, but easy not to do. Like, it's not like meditation. There couldn't be an easier thing to do in the world than meditate.

Cameron Schwab · 56:58Like, like if we're gonna invent the easiest thing to do in life, which will have genuine benefits, enormous amount of science behind it, meditation's gotta be it. And people go, yeah, I've tried it, but my mind gets busy. I go, fuck. That's the reason you're asking actually doing it, you know? Yeah. It's the, the whole purpose of it.

Cameron Schwab · 57:14I can't stop my, it's like people think they can just stop their brain. Well, I think they, if you practice it long enough, you almost can in your own ways, but it's actually the effort to bring yourself back, which is the thing.

Jason · 57:23Mm-hmm.

Cameron Schwab · 57:24Well allowed. Swear, by the way, I've sworn a few times, so just make sure that's okay.

Cameron Schwab · 57:27No, let swear that long. But the, um, the, the idea of like a, a good, great question for people is we all have something in life we need to confront. I can almost guarantee. It's not on today's to-do list. That very thing that you need to confront by asking yourself today what's possible, what's important.

Cameron Schwab · 57:50All it does is elevate the possibility of it being confronted. You know, you know, the, the thing that we've avoided the conversation we were supposed to have all that. And so the, the lazy I talked to is, are you make, I, I think of leaders leadership in this. Okay. This is, I think you'll relate to it as leaders, we are makers.

Cameron Schwab · 58:12Okay. As leaders, we are makers. And so therefore there's creativity in it. The word making. I find majority of leaders who I work with get their energy from making something. You know, it's, and I think these are the things I think we have to be good at making. We have to be good at making sense. Just making sense.

Cameron Schwab · 58:29Making sense from complexity, making sense from, um, you know, when things get outta control. Making sense when the world turns in a way that we didn't expect. All of those that we have to be good at making sense. I don't think, I don't think you can make sense unless you are actually taking a little step back.

Cameron Schwab · 58:46So we'll talk about that. The second thing is we have to be good at making meaning. Meaning is what we are creating here meaningful enough for other people to align their careers and find meaning in it? And people might say, well, that's easy if you're running a footy club. I go, but most of us just want, okay, what, what's the sense of meaning inside?

Cameron Schwab · 59:05It'd be based on ideas around connection, about doing something which, difficult, all, all that type of thing. Getting good at something. The next one is we have to make good. We have to make good. You know, we want, we want the work we do to be good. We, we, you know, people say, oh, well why don't you have it make great?

Cameron Schwab · 59:22I go, well, making great. You know, we might get to visit that from time to time. We might get to shake hands with it, you know, but no one, that's why it's so hard to win a premiership two years in a row. 'cause it's hard to make great. You have to be great to win it, but you have to be give consistently good to give yourself a chance of getting to great from time to time.

Cameron Schwab · 59:42And so if we just say, um, we're gonna make good and make good also has this idea, like one of the values of, uh, my business design, CEO, is just goodness. I want it to come from, it's just goodness. I want it to come from a decent sort of place, a place of goodness, you know, a heart type place. Then I think we have to be good at the next thing.

Cameron Schwab · 1:00:00So we've got sense meaning prog, uh, sense, meaning good. The next thing we have to be, we have to do is make progress. We just have to make progress because I is, if we are motivated by a sense of progress, perhaps more than anything else in our lives, why do people join gyms? And don't go because progress is slow.

Cameron Schwab · 1:00:21Why do people stop meditating? It's slow progress. So it's the repetitive effort to make progress. It's the habits, the rituals, the, you know, the James Clear. We don't ra rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems. It's a progress is systems based. I'm much more interested in systems setting than goal setting.

Cameron Schwab · 1:00:41So I wanna achieve this. Okay, what is the system which gives you the best chance of doing that? 'cause in my experience, design beats discipline every time. We might start out as discipline, but if you haven't designed a system which makes discipline easy, make the desi, the discipline's gonna drop off. And we've all done it, you know, and the last thing we have to do is make, we have to make, we have to make numbers.

Cameron Schwab · 1:01:01We just have to make numbers. And there's numbers in everything. And people say, oh you know my, I'm working for a not-for-profit and what's the numbers? I go, mate, you've got numbers. Don't worry about that. You know, the numbers are people we're helping the nu the money we have to raise to help the people that we're whatever.

Cameron Schwab · 1:01:15So none of those things can happen unless we make space. Unless we make space, you'll not make, you won't not be good at making sense, meaning good progress numbers, unless you make space. And all I'm saying with the say a trademark is just make it 10 minutes to 30 minutes every day for the pen to hit the paper.

Cameron Schwab · 1:01:34Ask yourself, re remind yourself of the best party yourself by looking at your trademark. And then ask two questions. What's possible, what's important? And the two things you'll have to overcome most days is fear. And lazy. They're the two things you'll have to try and overcome most days. Yeah.

Jason · 1:01:53Cameron, I reckon that's an absolutely fantastic place for us to tie a bow on this awesome time with you.

Jason · 1:02:00Um, but in doing so, I'd love, you know, for our audience who's listened, there's been nuggets of gold the whole way through. I know personally, I'm gonna have to go back through and write down a few of them and work on them, not just the, the trademark and the two questions, but how do our listeners find you?

Jason · 1:02:12How do they work with you if they want to kind of have a look at what de design CEO does and see if it sparks the interest of, of what they need in their lives right now? Um, tell us a bit about how we can find you and how we can work with you.

Cameron Schwab · 1:02:22Yeah, yeah. With businesses Design, CEO, it's, um, and it is based on a lot of the conversation we're having, designing the system to CEO, if you like.

Cameron Schwab · 1:02:29So. The majority of the work is with CEOs and their teams. So that's the core piece. Mostly it starts with the CEO definitely. But I think the, you know, the leadership teams and say partner groups within businesses, you know, it's the, you know, it's the most important team. The, the guy, the idea and the thing we talk about is it's, it's the first team, but it has to be also team first.

Cameron Schwab · 1:02:47It, I find partners groups, for instance, to be really quite complex when it comes to that type of thing. So it's working with them, it's on a building systems of leadership, but it's also, you know, means by which the individual does the work that we're talking about, you know, today. So this, it has to happen in you, for you.

Cameron Schwab · 1:03:02So it's very much, it's very much coaching, teaching oriented. Um, I'm not an advisor. Uh, I don't even pretend to be an advisor. I don't give advice. I just share ideas. That's the core of it. So it's very much based on teaching. Um, in terms of the, the stuff I do put a lot of stuff out to the world. We've got a podcast called In the Arena, um, had some great guests.

Cameron Schwab · 1:03:24Everyone from Lane Beachley, champion Surfer to, you know, people have been very successful in business, has a sporting flavor 'cause that's sort of the area that I can support and back up. Um, got, had some incredible people to be honest. Um. And I also have a, I I send out a, a little email every week, uh, called Moments of the Match, where I basically, I, I still watch games and I see a moment and I go, that's a really good moment to, uh, articulate a piece of leadership thinking.

Cameron Schwab · 1:03:52That's the, the goal. And I also do some artwork, which goes with it as well. And, uh, that'll be in a book at the end of the year. So there's ways of doing it. On my website design, CEO, there's also like 30 videos of just pieces of thinking around leadership, which, uh, there's no cost associated with it. It's just there is a 'cause.

Cameron Schwab · 1:04:08One of the, the, the four, the four, um, values of design, CEOI mentioned one before, goodness. The other one is, uh. Is grateful that I'm grateful that I get the opportunities that I do within the organization that, uh, you know, that I, that I, that I get to, to work with. You know, the, there's a, there's a funny little word we, we, we also use, and it's just grouse.

Cameron Schwab · 1:04:29It's gotta be grouse, you know, it's, it's bringing back the old fashioned, um, the old fashioned ideas around that. And it's, it is still, you know, I think having those little principles by which you, in fact, um. Think about yourself and your organization, the things that it's going to, you know, ask of you, uh, each day.

Cameron Schwab · 1:04:52So the four generous, grateful goodness and gr are the four and they're all G's. And, and it come and it plays off the cgs 'cause we're going back to the G 'cause I think probably, um, the G's given me the most meaningful moments in terms of my working life and probably much childhood in lots of ways.

Cameron Schwab · 1:05:07Those premiership, those premiership cups I talked about before when I was a, a little tiger supporter and

Jason · 1:05:11what a special place. Unreal.

Cameron Schwab · 1:05:13Yeah, it is. No, it's incredible. Incredible. Nah,

Jason · 1:05:15Cameron, well thank you so much for, uh, having us. For those who haven't followed, uh, or picked up that's [designed.ceo](http://designed.ceo) for the website, go and check it out.

Jason · 1:05:23Sign up to the email. I know I'm getting 'em and absolutely love it and look forward to seeing it all come together at a book as a book at the end of the year. Um, it's been a pleasure having you on the show, Cameron. And until next time,

Nick · 1:05:33make sure you write down what's important. What's possible game over

Jason · 1:05:39this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only.

Jason · 1:05:43The conversations are of a general nature and do not qualify as financial or tax advice. We recommend before you make any financial decisions, you consult a licensed professional. Individuals on the podcast may hold positions in the company's discuss. ---