Marty's Hiring Checklist

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 170 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase. I'm here with Nick and Marty. How you going, fellas?

Marty · 00:06I'm going well, Jase. I've just come off a number of calls today. I still can't believe how many people are leaving money on the table. High net worth people, haven't got time, still paying 7 percent on their mortgages.

Marty · 00:21Refinance, get a price check with us. We're getting them down to sixes. We're saving people 5, 000, 12, 000. I'm thinking, how am I, how am I Much money are people leaving on their table in accounting, financial planning, by just not getting the right guidance. And these people think they're on good products, and yet they think their bank's looking after them.

Marty · 00:44If you're with your bank, give us a call. We'll go back to your bank and get you a better rate than what you're on at your current bank. It's not in their best interest to look at it. So ring us. We won't make anything out of it. It said, we'll get you a better price.

Jason · 00:59Just to lead

Jason · 01:00straight off the back. I sat with a new client the other day, always keeps three, 400 K in their trading account and like relatively cashed up, that's about the right amount for working capital, but they had a, uh, business savings account.

Jason · 01:14Below it that I'd seen had never really had any money transferred into it. I said to the client, I'm like, look, you know, if you move 300 K across and then kind of transfer the money in and out, you know, over the year, but you leave majority that balance in another account said you'd probably make 30.

Jason · 01:30What do you, they have 400, 500 K. I was like, you know, you could have extra 20 to 30 K in interest earned on your savings. And he's like, hang on a minute, an extra 20 or 30 K for free, just for transferring money into that other account. I'm like, well, yeah, look, you still got to pay tax on it. You know, it's revenue, but you would have an extra 20 to 30 K in additional dollars added to your bank account purely for moving the money to your second bank account.

Jason · 01:53He was like, Oh, I just couldn't, I just never knew it. I just never knew to use it. So.

Marty · 01:57Money's just getting burnt because

Marty · 02:00people are apathetic on it. And I get it. People are busy and I go, you don't need to always go through a refinance. Like I said, use our expertise. We'll go back to your bank. We'll get you a better rate.

Marty · 02:11So as a first point of call, at least that's putting money in your pocket. I just think how much money is just going somewhere it shouldn't because. People are just thinking they're okay. And, and I get it. People haven't got time. They got big loans though. And yeah, we should be, we should be really educating on this because it drives me nuts, this sort of thing.

Marty · 02:31Nick, anyway, how are you? Sorry.

Nick · 02:33I'm really good. I'm just thinking of all the board games we could make to teach people. Well, I think we should start making some numbers game board games, but it's, I'm glad you brought it up because.

Jason · 02:44How's the name of our podcast for making board games? .

Nick · 02:50It works. Um, it was in the original strategy three years ago, wasn't it?

Nick · 02:53I think it was. I think it was, yeah. 2024 we won our own board game. Yeah. And to see Marty's head as the little one, one of the little

Nick · 03:00things around Little

Jason · 03:01Bobblehead Marty. Yes.

Nick · 03:03Anyway, this morning we had, uh, a client who probably five years away from retirement, so they've come in from, for some re retirement planning.

Nick · 03:15The exact same Superfund product that we use, I'm not going to mention the provider, but they had the exact same Superfund that we use already from another financial planner, the way Superfunds work when you move away from industry funds or actually no industry funds have this as well, but you have. You have a fee for the platform.

Nick · 03:33So, you know, if you're using an AMP or an MLC fund or even a CBUS fund, you pay to have that platform, but inside of that platform, there's an abundance of investment options that your financial planner can choose. So this particular client had the same fund that we would have recommended, but a very different, um, investment option selection.

Nick · 03:56So this particular fund, there's around 200 investments in there that we can choose and we build an

Nick · 04:00investment portfolio. So for them to move into the, the investment option that we chose or that we use, Returns were better because we're big believers in index funds. So it was an index fund, um, option, but the annual cost investment cost difference was 4, 000 per year, just on the males fund.

Nick · 04:20So you compound that over the next 20 years, you know, these people are only in their fifties. So 20 years is, is under probably 30 years. Exact same super fund, just different investment options, just another way to build it out. Okay. 4, 000 a year difference, um, in fees. So it's the, it's the power of advice.

Nick · 04:43It's the power of advice. And a lot of people will think, well, how do you know where to go? What have I got to, you know, this person had been to one advisor and was paying this, but then we're showing them this. You just go to your friends and family and you speak to, we spoke about this

Nick · 05:00before, but people that have had a good experience with another broker or another advisor.

Nick · 05:05Or another, or another account and that's where you start, but you need to be consistently looking at this stuff because if we look at the three things that we deal with, tax, Uh, super and mortgages. Well, your mortgage is probably the biggest debt you're going to have in your life outside your property.

Nick · 05:22For most people, super is going to be the biggest asset you have in your life. And for most people, tax is going to be the biggest expense outside of their kids that they have. So why are you not across it? And you need to be reviewing it and making sure you're in the, you know, the best products possible with the best advisor annually.

Marty · 05:39All right. You got me going now, Nick, you got me going Riley. So, investors, one in five people in Victoria are selling their investment properties because they think they, they're coming off interest only, the principal and interest. They think they can't refinance because of the 3 percent buffer. Um, so the buffers

Marty · 06:00basically is the interest rate and then the banks put on a buffer on servicing on top of that actual interest rate when they look at servicing your loan.

Marty · 06:07Now, for investors, um, people, they have brought out that there's a 1 percent buffer to a certain amount of banks for when you refinance a home loan to enable people to refinance. So it gives you a little bit more leverage as to what you can borrow in order to people get better rates. But for investors, um, that doesn't always apply, that 1 percent buffer, or that's what is the apply in the market, but there's three banks out there that will apply the 1 percent buffer to interest only products in the market on investment.

Marty · 06:43Now this is critical because people are actually selling up investments thinking they can't refinance when there's actually avenues to get a better rate. And to be able to refinance those facilities and hold onto those properties because the cost is

Marty · 07:00enormous on agents fees and they're getting absolutely screwed on current rates that they're on.

Marty · 07:06And some people I'm finding are on not only 7%, 8 percent up to high eights in some situations. And you don't have to jump to a principal and interest just because the existing lender says that you have to. You can actually find. Avenues to refinance on that 1 percent buffer at three lenders that I know of at the moment, interest only.

Marty · 07:30So again, before you just burn money, um, for goodness sake, ring and protect your assets, get them at good pricing and at least pressure test where you're at to see if we can save you some good money on your investment portfolio again. So yeah, got a totally different tangent today, but just

Jason · 07:52If you've got this far into the episode and thought, you know, what's going on, you've just got yourself some bonus hacks there for sorting out your financial situation.

Jason · 08:00Whether that was, you know, using a high interest savings account, refinancing your mortgage to get the best rate or checking out your advisor fees and your super fund. Now that's the bonus knowledge you've learned from this app, but we actually also have another bit of content coming our way from the great Marty V.

Jason · 08:15So what have you got for us today, Marty?

Marty · 08:17Uh, well today I wanted to talk about, um, Recruitment, recruiting great talent and also when is the right time to let, uh, people go as well because it's always a big topic of conversation with business owners and it's a significant amount of money you're investing.

Marty · 08:33Not only in hiring someone, but in the process of hiring someone a lot of the times. And I've just learned so much, um, even over the last couple of years, the do's and don'ts. And I wanted to share with the audience, just some of the things I've learned that I think will be beneficial. So yeah, I hope that, uh, that resonates out there.

Jason · 08:56Uh, two, two new, um, client

Jason · 09:00services, uh, team members, and probably about to throw the ad out there for a new senior accountant, senior manager type, high end guru to join the, uh, future advisory team. So if you are interested in future advisory. com. au forward slash careers, we'd love to hear from you and, uh, come and join the team.

Jason · 09:17So Marty, I'm, I'm definitely interested in, uh, Your advice on what you've learned over the years, because I think it'd be very helpful.

Marty · 09:24Yeah, I think initially in the interview process, you're obviously looking to build rapport with a person. But one of the things I'm always looking for in that interview process is whether they've jumped jobs and to the reason why they've jumped jobs.

Marty · 09:38So everyone wants to accelerate in their careers. I get that. But if you're looking at a sideways jump movement, And things haven't worked out for the person in, in various different roles that they've been in. That's a massive red flag. And one of the things I always look out for is, I say, if the person is actually saying, I didn't

Marty · 10:00achieve it because this employer didn't provide me with this, or I didn't have the circumstances available to hit the targets that I wanted to hit.

Marty · 10:09Um, if they're looking to blame market conditions, other people or the business, that's a huge red flag. And some of the good ones that I've seen coming across is the ones that have had some longevity in the role. So I'm generally looking at a couple of years. I want a bit of loyalty, right? Just a couple of years, you know, but when I see them talk about and talk in a way where they go, Uh, I achieved this at my current role because of these initiatives that I did with the employer's help that I'm looking at someone who's immediately collaborative and I'm looking for those things in the interview to go, have we got longevity in this person?

Marty · 10:51Are they looking for a place to have a home for the next three to five years? And I'm just looking at attitudinally, like whether

Marty · 11:00they're actually going. Okay, the problems of the world is caused by inadequacy, or have I made the best out of the opportunity I've had? So generally if they're jumping to a higher level role, that's always a great indication that they're performing well, and they're being attracted and people want them for that higher role as well.

Marty · 11:22So that's a really, just a simple technique up front where I go, Are they doing, are they doing the things that I think they should be doing or are they, are they having problems for reasons, you know, that they're not having that self accountability. The other thing I've done over the course of the last couple of years, um, and particularly in the last probably six months is there's a lot of questions and answers around recruiting people.

Marty · 11:48But I've made up my own checklist as well. So we have personality testing, we have science, we have capability testing. I get all that. And I'm going, how do I put my

Marty · 12:00intuition on a page? Like I understand my industry for the last 25 years, but a lot of that's intuitively, so you'll come out of an interview going, there's something about that person I really like, or they're saying the things I really like, but I thought, how do I put some science to that where I can actually grade it?

Marty · 12:18in my own capacity as a manager as well. And just to give you an example, this is for mortgage brokers, right? So like I had, are they a current broker? So out of 130 points, I start grading different aspects of the principles. Are they a current broker? Because if they're in the current industry, you know, that's, that's a tick.

Marty · 12:39Yeah, are they, are they a banker? Yeah, so they still get points, but on a lower grade because we've got a lot of training to do to get them to that point where we need to. Um, proactive attitude, I rate that out of 10. You know, give them a mark. Are they a team player? Do they have leadership qualities? So I'm not only thinking about the role

Marty · 13:00now, but I'm thinking about the future and I'll grade them accordingly.

Marty · 13:03Relationship building. What are they like in their communication in the interview? You know, how are they building relationships in their previous roles? Are they successfully doing that? Are they finding that difficulty? I, I find that difficult. I'll rate them outta 10 on that loyalty and trustworthiness.

Marty · 13:22Like, what's their lawyer? How do they speak about their current employer? Yeah, because again, if they don't speak well of their current employer, then what are they going to talk about, you know, about us? Could it be the same? Could it be habitual that it's, it's always someone else that's the problem? You know, what's their loyalty in regards to family, in regards to friendship groups?

Marty · 13:42Um, Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important. Analytical skills. I'll assess that as well. Psychological testing and capability testing. I will take that science and put that into the metric as well. So I'm taking that on board. Likeability and business fit. Do I

Marty · 14:00like them? And does someone else in the business like them as well?

Marty · 14:03I might draw someone in and say, just give me a read on this person. And I'm thinking, Yeah, what's the age? What do they do in regards to hobbies? Will they fit the dynamic of the business? Can they generate leads on their own accord? You know, do they showcase that they can attract business to them or not?

Marty · 14:22Are they actually achieving a result at a minimum standard level That would be very appropriate for our business and we have the chance to scale that up Or are they achieving in excess of that where they will score higher? Um, and that's the sort of thing. Can they settle a certain amount of loans in their first year?

Marty · 14:46Is that, is this person the type of person that can do that? And can they settle 50 million in their second year? So I'm looking at key principles about what makes our business successful and they might go

Marty · 15:00beyond that, but I'll give them a grading on that. And what's really interesting about that, since I've been doing that on my own level, instead of it being intuitive, There seems to be clear winners.

Marty · 15:11So it's interesting how you have people that are sort of good people, don't get me wrong, all good people, but people that are sort of at that average level might be scoring 50 to 60 points, and then you'll get an outlier. That scores 90 plus out of 120, 130 points where you go, oh, there's a, I need to pay attention.

Marty · 15:33There's a significant upside in this person. And I just feel like I've cracked a bit of a code on it where I was utilizing intuition and then sort of more the science externally to myself. So if I bring it all together. You know, I feel like I'm getting a better read on the overall picture of that hire.

Marty · 15:54Um, because again, you're investing, you're handing over a check of 80, 000, 90,

Marty · 16:00000. Sometimes that's, that's big. If you were putting that into shares, you want to know that you're going to get a return on that too. And you want to know that that person in fairness to that person's got longevity in their business for their own sake as well.

Marty · 16:13So yeah, that's just an initial, you know, Uh, read on it. But, um, yeah, what do you think lads? I've just come up with that probably in the last three months.

Jason · 16:22What I'm liking about it is it's very deliberate, like it's very deliberate. There's a lot of strategy, a lot of depth, a lot of thought that's gone into it.

Jason · 16:29So, you know, even hearing you unpack it, I start to think, well, you know, when we're hiring for a particular role, am I going beyond just asking the person about their job experience? You know, why are they looking for a new job or not? You've, you've got some really detailed parameters that fit the certain role you're looking for.

Jason · 16:45So, you know, what I'd love an example of from you, Marty is have, have you gone through this process and had somebody score, you know, the 110 out of 120, like the big outlier, but if you also then had the nightmare, somebody who's come in

Jason · 17:00and just completely failed the Marty V test and ended up with 20 out of 120.

Jason · 17:05And, you know, can you tell us a little bit about those?

Marty · 17:07Yeah, well, I think I look at it in hindsight. So the way I was able to come up with the list was to go, all right, who's been successful in our business already. And I want to get similar fits, right? But again, a lot of the time in the past, it might've been more intuitive.

Marty · 17:22So it might've been, I really like that person. And then you get burnt on something in the science that wasn't quite, you know, up to scratch. Whereas this hits all the key metrics I look for in a person in what I've seen over 25 years and what I've seen work well. Now, again, nothing's, nothing's perfect.

Marty · 17:40Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, uh, yeah, yeah, right. So, you know, but, but what it does, and Nick and I've been in that situation. How many times do you come out and you go, geez, I really liked that person. It was actually a good person, but then sometimes that works out and other times you're off the mark as well.

Marty · 17:58So it's like, this gives

Marty · 18:00me just real clear specifics and. Already, I go, even the latest hires we've done, they're gun hires. Like, like I know they're gun hires because of the process. So that's not on, you know, some of the other people we might have hired that mightn't been up to scratch. I'm always asking myself, What should I have done better in that process?

Marty · 18:21Cause I've missed on a couple and it hurts the business when I miss and I don't want to miss, right? So I go, it's really important to the business that I don't. So I've created a criteria that's more conducive to what I know and already I'm really, I'm really excited about a couple of hires I've made on this particular principle, and that's nothing against the people that missed out.

Marty · 18:44They're all good people, but, but these were definitely elite in comparison to on, on this modeling. So that's, that's what I'm. So I'll be able to tell you more again in 12 months time, but I go, I felt like I needed to do

Marty · 19:00this to just take it to another level for myself. So, and for the business, right?

Nick · 19:04Yeah, Marty, I love it.

Nick · 19:05And, you know, I've obviously made wrong hires myself and it is probably the one biggest cost to your business. Um, and not just the cost as in. you know, the cost of rehiring and whatnot. But the thing I've learned the last couple of years is the opportunity cost. What are you missing out on by not hiring that right person?

Nick · 19:27So it actually, it's a, it's, it's a multiplier. So, and I think who better in your business than you to know who's going to suit the role. And I think unfortunately, particularly in the last few years with this, well, and even It's still today, but the shortage of, of labor or skilled labor, um, you've really got a recruiter pushing you someone, and you know, they're obviously going to be pushing them to you and putting that person in, in.

Nick · 19:55On a, on a pedestal to a degree and then the individual themselves. So the

Nick · 20:00fact that you've actually thought about a methodology I love, and it takes me back to when we first started doing the, um, the personality profiling. And I think every business should do this and you mentioned it briefly, but I just wanted to touch on it a bit more, but we actually looked at the top performers in our business.

Nick · 20:16And did a personality profile on them. So it wasn't just us looking at the profile and the numbers going, Oh yeah, that's a good result. They're in the top 10 percentile of their numeric ability in the country or whatnot. It's who are the really good performers in our business. What did, what did their profiling look like?

Nick · 20:34We now have a blueprint for everyone that comes in and does that profiling as to what they need to look like. And outside of the personality profiling, it sounds like you've just done that with, you know, someone's background and work history and whatnot. And I think it's brilliant. You look in your own backyard, look at what's working.

Nick · 20:50Replicate it. And if they don't tick those boxes, they don't come into the business. So I just think it's, it's really smart. And, um, these two, these two big highs you're talking about, geez,

Nick · 21:00I hope they turn out because you've,

Nick · 21:04there's a lot, there's a lot riding on this. Otherwise the whole thing's defunct. This could be the numbers game, higher blueprint. You know, we could sell it with the board

Marty · 21:13game. It absolutely could be. And it's always easier to direct a racehorse than try and push someone average through the mud. It really is.

Marty · 21:22And, and that's no disrespect to people that aren't performing at a high level, but it's such a critical thing because you're also putting resources in training people when you onboard them. Um, and. So, like Nick said, opportunity cost is, as well, and you're happy to overpay slightly. You don't have to, you don't have to pay a lot more, but you do have to, you're better to overpay for someone of quality that you believe in, at another level, if you've got the right methodology up front, including the personality testing, and lock it all in, into all the metrics, that's going to make a

Marty · 22:00strong decision.

Marty · 22:00And for me, it's all about. I don't like paying more when there's no reason to pay more. And if I haven't got a clear winner or a methodology on a clear winner on the front end, then why would I ever extend a benefit? Like it just doesn't make sense even with the personality capability testing. But if I know as a business person and I look at quality people over the journey and I'm going, and I know what they've been able to accomplish, then I know what the upside is on that person as well.

Marty · 22:35So it's not, you know, it's just not throwing money away to get someone on board. It's actually using that methodology strategically to, to get the right person and to get the result from that right person. Because sometimes I've seen an out performance by three to four to one. And that's significant when it comes to business.

Nick · 22:55And Marty, we had, we had a brief conversation about this the other day. And I guess there was a

Nick · 23:00light bulb moment and I think this is going to sound really basic, but I would, I would suggest that a lot of, uh, small businesses don't think this way, but you know, we were sort of not arguing, but we were having a conversation over, you know, do you give someone that extra 10 K a year, because that's what they've been on and that's what they need.

Nick · 23:19Um, and I think a lot of businesses will go. Now, the roll's a hundred, you're not getting a hundred and ten, there's other people out there. We thought this was a good hire, and we just broke it down. We said, well, ten grand, we're, a year, we're going to know if this person's good or not in three months time.

Nick · 23:35So, if we get it wrong, and we pay the extra ten, it's an extra eight hundred bucks a month. So we've really only paid an extra two thousand four hundred than we would have paid someone else. After your company tax rate, you really only risking an extra two grand within three months, you get the ultimate rate on someone, whether or not they're the right person.

Nick · 23:55And to your point, you could be four X as far as an average

Nick · 24:00performer versus a good performer. So don't get caught up on that annual salary. Just think about it. Just think, Oh, I think this is the right person. And they're an outlier. And I'll know in three months. And what's that extra 10 grand a year actually going to cost me to try and find it out.

Nick · 24:15So. Yeah, just, just get real granular and we sort of walked away after that and go, okay, we, we get them in, we give them the salary and we'll, you know, we, we back them to perform and if we don't, it's a small cost versus what, um, you know, someone on 10 K a year less.

Jason · 24:31I think what's, what's really important there though, Nick is the, the, what happens after you hired, like what's the onboarding process, the probation period, and then the check ins or performance metrics after that.

Jason · 24:42So, you know, I think, I think everything, you know, Marty you've covered so far is absolutely brilliant. And if you want the Marty checklists and. Connect with Marty on LinkedIn and send him a message and say, give me the Marty numbers game hiring checklist. Um, but for me, I mean, I think we've had some fantastic hires.

Jason · 24:59Likewise,

Jason · 25:00at future, our last couple of hires have been brilliant. The process at the moment for the two client services that we're looking to hire, we'll bring on two new at the same time, um, I'm pumped because the process has actually taken a little bit longer than usual. I think back in the day, years ago, Greg and I might've been involved in the interview process, used gut feel and gone.

Jason · 25:18Yeah, shit. I like that person. Let's hire him this time round. We've had Amy, who's our practice manager, who's heavily involved in the client services and admin world. Really ask all the detailed questions about the person's role, the person's background, why they want to come to future, how they'll fit, what the role is going to be entitled in entail.

Jason · 25:38Way more detail than I would have gone into. So I'm like, these people that we're bringing on, epic. But now for me, the next part is how do we make sure when we onboard them, we, we deliver on everything future advisory said it was going to do to create, like, to allow these people to be as successful as possible in their role.

Nick · 25:54Yeah. And when you have people that don't work out, the first thing you need to do, uh, is look

Nick · 26:00internally. And, um, yeah, obviously you need to. to, to have a, a blueprint or a structure when people come on board. But I think one of the things I've done, um, when we haven't hired the right people, it's, well, what did we do wrong?

Nick · 26:17Why did we not hire them? What weren't we doing as a business? And it's not, it can be a combination of, you know, Marty's checklist. And, you know, did we give them the best opportunity to succeed? Um, and sometimes I think we've been guilty of. Not giving them the best opportunity, but then we give them the opportunity and they do succeed and we might've wasted three to six months.

Nick · 26:39Um, so I think it's just as important that, yeah, you, you bring them into your business in the correct way. And. You have to take ownership as well. At the end of the day, they're your employee. So you're there to help them succeed at the same time. So yeah, it's a really good point.

Marty · 26:55Well, I'm glad you both brought this up because yeah, what happens once you're

Marty · 27:00hired and I think, you know, you've got six months on probation, but I think what you're saying is really critical is, you know, what is the minimum acceptable standard that they need to perform at and what is the timing on that?

Marty · 27:16Because you have got six months in order to get them to an optimal level, but they need to know what that expectation is. And even in the front end, it might be the second interview process to have real clarity around that. So there's no second guessing or You know, wondering what I need to do. Um, really they have to know what exactly the job entails and then what is the expectation?

Marty · 27:41Is there clear expectation set from the beginning? And then, you know, there's an agreement and generally good people and high performers move towards that. They love that. They love that. It's outlined that this is the expectation. Now you find out what their expectation is because that might far exceed the minimum

Marty · 28:00standard, right?

Marty · 28:00Um, So it's like, that's, that's even brilliant. They go, absolutely. I could do that. If not more, I'd actually be disappointed if I wasn't doing double that. So great performers give you great insight when you're very clear on the expectations up front. And, um, yeah. And then what you're looking for.

Marty · 28:21Obviously, we have one week onboarding, really important, so we outlay what to expect in the first week as well when someone comes on board. I think that's really critical so people feel like, you know, they're in a safe space, they get all the technology, they meet key people, um, they're trained up sufficiently, and that's obviously ongoing.

Marty · 28:41But just real, real clear parameters around that first week. Onboarding is really important. And is there effort and commitment to the actions and results, um, communicated and reciprocated? So if you're setting actions in those early days to be accomplished, are

Marty · 29:00they moving towards you in achieving those results?

Marty · 29:03I think, and trend is your friend. Always say trend is your friend. If you don't see a level of improvement at an appropriate pace. then you have a problem. And that's the sort of thing you're looking for is going, is this person just not Not able to lift from, you know, a slow start, uh, do they need training in order to progress a little bit more here?

Marty · 29:28So you need to be really on board in those early days to make sure that you're getting this trend of improvement and it's heading in the right direction. Um, the right direction to the expectations and agreement set. And if you don't see the key front end metrics hit within a couple of months, then the writing could potentially be on the wall.

Marty · 29:49You know, this is a business owner. If it's not right, you have this sinking gut feel within a couple of months time going, Oh boy. Okay. Cause we're not seeing the actions.

Marty · 30:00We know that the result might come later. But you're not seeing the re the actions that you know, that gets the result, even though they've all been mapped out.

Marty · 30:08So this is really important because we talk about six months probation, but it's really in the first two months that the foundations are set and we burn sometimes three or four months for no particular reason, if it's not going to work out.

Nick · 30:23I was just going to say one other little hack, and I think this has added a lot of value in our business.

Nick · 30:28Um, and this is more around your onboarding. Peace, Jase, but we've introduced the 30 day interview. 30, 60, 90,

Marty · 30:37yeah.

Nick · 30:37So basically our external HR provider does that interview with the new employee and it's how have you found the onboarding, um, and are you, is there anything that you're, you don't have, um, that's stopping you from doing your job properly?

Nick · 30:52For example, any tools you need, any help you need? That's been really good for a couple of things. Number one, um,

Nick · 31:00new employees, depending on their level of confidence, they might sit there and they might have something that's not working like from a software point of view or a tech point of view, um, or a hardware point of view, whatever, what, whatever it might be that we didn't know about.

Nick · 31:12Um, how'd you find the onboarding process? Is there anything we could have done? It could have got you, you know, up and running quicker. Um, any issues culturally. So that's been really good, not just for that individual and to make sure that individual has everything that they need to perform, but also to, to teach us how to be better.

Nick · 31:31Uh, for the, for the next on board, if, if we need to, then we do that at 60 days and we do that at 90 days. And yeah, Marty's nailed it like that probation period. And like, I'm, I'm my own worst enemy here and we continue to learn. But for me, I haven't used it in the right way at times, but. You absolutely need to, to use probation periods, they're there for a reason, but you have to make sure you've got the right read

Nick · 32:00on someone within the first six months.

Nick · 32:01And I think where I've gone wrong in the past is not doing what I needed to, to be absolutely certain within six months, whether it was going to work or not. Um, and all these little hacks have helped and obviously making the wrong decisions. You're continually, continuously learning. Um, but yeah, those 30, 60, 90 day interviews have been a really good resource for us or tool for us as well.

Marty · 32:25Yeah. And Nick's right. It's, it's, it's leadership accountability too, in order to ensure that it's a collaborative approach to. put that person in the best position to perform in that time and you know, the sooner you get those metrics right, um, the better for both parties ultimately. And I think if something is going awry, you know, how big is the gap between the current performance and the accepted performance?

Marty · 32:52Um, You really got to note that. And I had a situation where the gap, it was just the wrong person for the role. The

Marty · 33:00guy was lovely guy, but just the wrong person for the role in the end. And he's like, he basically said, I'm doing my best. And given the, how resourced he was, I, I basically said, that's what worries me.

Marty · 33:14It's the. It's the, the gap is too wide from where we need to be compared to where you're at. And you are doing your best, nothing against the person. It's, um, it was just the wrong, that was the wrong hire. So, um, I've had that before. So again, so you set clear actions, targets, and look to hit the result by a certain date to quickly bridge that gap.

Marty · 33:37If there is a gap. Um, Um, but again, if you're monitoring it every couple of weeks, it's, it's, you know, you could, you can come to the conclusion pretty quickly that you need to come to. So yeah, I think that's really important as well, that there's constant communication. Cause again, hard conversations are not easy as a leader sometimes too, you know, it's, you need to have them.

Marty · 33:58And a lot of the times,

Marty · 34:00you know, people can let things just go and hope that it works out and then it blows up at a later date. So the poor person that you're dealing with is none the wiser. And you're just, you know, you just get upset because it's not working how you want it to work. But that constant communication and working with that person, you generally find you're going to come through to a better result together.

Marty · 34:21Um, if, if that, if that hire is the right hire, you know, initially. So really, really important. So, but the question I'll, I'll ask Jace is, um, You know, when should you let someone go?

Jason · 34:35What usually ends up happening is when you had the gut feel that it wasn't going to work out, it wasn't right. That's when I feel is the appropriate time that you need to really then spend the time analyzing it, figuring out and make the move.

Jason · 34:49Um, unfortunately, you know, a couple of times over the course of six, seven, eight years, whatever we are now running a few different firms and businesses. Um, Greg and I. You know, we,

Jason · 35:00we see the best in people, you know, as, as is, you know, sometimes it's the human way you want to see the best in people and you want to see, give people the opportunity to deliver on what they said they could do.

Jason · 35:10And, um, on a couple of occasions, Greg and I have continued to try to see the best in people, even though there was, you know, several people around us who told us like, guys, like enough's enough. Come on, you've got to be able to see through the, see through it all. And, um, yeah, had we, had we acted on our gut.

Jason · 35:29You know, it would be in a very different place for, you know, and look, you live and learn. Um, and I think through that learning, uh, a couple of years ago, over the last couple of years, we, we had, um, one, unfortunately recently that, you know, we, we reflected and probably made the wrong hire based on. you know, role, office location, the things that we needed.

Jason · 35:49Um, and fortunately on this occasion, it was, it was one of the faster ones we turned around, but you know what, rather than letting this drag out, let's, let's, let's just end it as well, while we can all hold our heads high and have a great conversation.

Jason · 36:00So, Hey, you know, this isn't working out. Thanks for everything.

Jason · 36:02And, and pulled it. So yeah, I think the sooner, the better, if you know, and yes, you can, you know, utilize the whole six month probation period, but make sure that you've got those checking mechanisms or things that you need to know. You know, from a KPIs, measurements, performance, um, you know, compatibility with the colleagues that they're working with, all the different things that make for great culture and great performance.

Jason · 36:25Um, and you can get a read on it pretty quick. And I think that's where the gut comes into it. And then gut, gut for me is.

Marty · 36:32You've hit the nail on the head, you know, if you're asking yourself, should you let someone go? It's, it's probably time. And like I say, we're all, we're all nice people. And we all know that there's another person on the other side of this that has a family and, you know, has rent to pay or a mortgage to pay.

Marty · 36:50So it's not easy, but how much money is burnt by giving the benefit of the doubt? It's like, if I look over 25 years, yeah,

Marty · 37:00I could kick myself because I knew three months before it wasn't going to work out and, and you keep going, it'll turn, you know, you'll see a snippet and it'll, it'll be good. But that's why I like the key metrics and the key actions, because if they're not being met, Then the writings on the wall.

Marty · 37:18And if that's consistently not trending up, it gives me confidence to know that it's the right decision.

Nick · 37:24And you spot on. It just makes me think, because, you know, I've, I've had some recent learnings that the key metrics you end up doing anyway, when you manage someone out, you have to now, right? So these days you can't just, if you go past that probation period, you can't just get rid of people.

Nick · 37:42You've got to manage them out and then it all becomes about the key metrics. So do it at the start so you don't, you know, you don't waste the time.

Marty · 37:50And the other thing is, is like proven performers as well. What happens if proven performers drop off? Now that's a, that's a uniquely interesting

Marty · 38:00one because what you do have to find out is why they have fallen off.

Marty · 38:05And that's generally a much easier course correct because a lot of the times it might be a health thing, might be something that's happened in the family. So again, they're proven performers. So, you know, they have more longevity. They've been in the business a lot longer. And again, that's usually, course correct into better performances again.

Marty · 38:25So you need to have flexibility and use context in your thinking as well. But if that falls away and the trend continues to fall, then, you know, the same thing applies performance management in the end. The other thing, the other thing that I've learned is never easy to do. Don't, if you need to fire someone, don't do it at the end of the day.

Marty · 38:46Cause you sweat on it. Other people sweat on it. It's, um, it's horrible. Do it, do it early in the day in respect to the other person too. Cause they've thought they've had interactions with you on that day, knowing that

Marty · 39:00you ultimately were going to fire them. So it's best to have that conversation early and in regards to the premise of the conversation, Be very short and sharp because you don't want open loops all over the place in conversation because it's highly emotive.

Marty · 39:18So it's really just, this is not going to be a good conversation. And you generally get a, Oh no. And, um, Going, you know, I need to let you go based on a couple of criterias and look to end the meeting as quickly as possible. Um, if you can put them on course to another employer. Um, if you can help them out, you know, just, just to help that transition across somewhere else.

Marty · 39:43Um, generally I've found as long as you're being transparent and honest and you've had good communication, they'll say, look, I'm sorry it didn't work out. Um, And, um, you know, they move on. There's this, yeah, it's, it's an okay ending. Um, sometimes it can get volatile

Marty · 40:00and you've got to deal with that in real time too, but you don't want that to be a half an hour, 40 minute conversation.

Marty · 40:06Has to be two or three minutes, very directive and, you know, move that person on in the day if that's possible as well. So yeah, there you go. Some interesting tidbits and, uh. Uh, again, I think, uh, business owners will relate to this and, uh, yeah, just what I've found over the last few years and probably over the last 20 years, eventually you get better at it.

Marty · 40:29I hate doing it. I hate doing

Jason · 40:31it. As much as we're coming to an end of this episode on a bit of a somber note, I mean, the key lesson there is that there's probably so many business owners out there listening or even employees that have been in that situation and just going, you know what, You know, sometimes you've got to make a hard decision.

Jason · 40:44Sometimes shit's going to happen. Um, and ultimately the lessons can be learned out of this episode is, is about performances around asking the right questions and, and really tailoring and knowing what you're after and how to get there. So it's been a lot of valuable insights, Marty.

Marty · 40:59Can I just say

Marty · 41:00like, you know, even good performers move on too.

Marty · 41:04So you go, you know, people go for the best circumstance and, you know, we always feel bad about it, you know, in regards to when you do let someone go when it's the right decision, but you get good performers moving on as well. So again, you've, you've still got to keep your business head. Um, you know, uh, over the top of the, you know, over the top of the emotive head as well.

Marty · 41:25So, yeah, it just makes sense overall.

Jason · 41:28Now, I appreciate your insights, Marty, as always, you're a man of many, many wisdoms to share with people. And, uh, if you've enjoyed this episode, give us a like, subscribe to our YouTube, give us a watch if you're on the YouTube, otherwise it's not worth it. Uh, Spotify and Apple podcast, but we absolutely love having you join the Numbers Game podcast and listening to us rabble on half the time, but until next time,

Marty · 41:51hire strong, cut fast, game over. 00:08:17 - Discussion begins on recruitment and the importance of hiring the right talent 00:08:33 - Marty talks about his experiences from hiring and common mistakes 00:09:24 - Marty shares his approach to evaluating potential candidates during the interview process 00:10:09 - Warning signs to look out for during the hiring process 00:10:51 - The importance of seeking longevity and collaboration in potential hires 00:11:48 - Marty talks about the checklist he has developed for hiring 00:13:22 - Marty discusses how he rates candidates on loyalty and trustworthiness 00:14:46 - Discussion on how to predict a candidate's potential success in the role 00:15:11 - How the scoring system helps identify top candidates 00:16:13 - Marty shares his thoughts on the importance of making the right hiring decision 00:17:05 - Jason asks Marty about his experiences with this hiring approach 00:18:21 - Marty talks about the impact of a poor hire on the business 00:19:04 - Nick shares his thoughts on Marty's hiring approach 00:21:13 - Marty talks about the importance of hiring quality people and paying them accordingly 00:22:55 - Nick shares his thoughts on the cost of hiring 00:24:31 - Jason talks about the importance of the onboarding process after hiring 00:25:00 - Jason starts discussing the onboarding process and probation period for new hires 00:25:14 - The importance of checking in with new hires and setting performance metrics 00:25:27 - Marty speaks about the need for a thorough and effective onboarding process 00:26:00 - Discussion on the cost of a poor hire and the benefits of investing in quality hires 00:26:40 - Marty and Nick talk about their experiences with the new hiring approach 00:27:15 - Jason shares his thoughts on the importance of continual evaluation and feedback for new hires 00:27:50 - Marty talks about the importance of providing new hires with clear expectations and goals 00:28:30 - Discussion on the importance of cultural fit in the hiring process 00:29:00 - Marty wraps up the discussion on recruitment, summarizing key points 00:29:30 - Jason and Nick share their final thoughts on the topic of recruitment 00:08:17 - Discussion begins on recruitment and the importance of hiring the right talent 00:11:48 - Marty talks about the checklist he has developed for hiring 00:14:46 - Discussion on how to predict a candidate's potential success in the role 00:17:05 - Jason asks Marty about his experiences with this hiring approach 00:21:13 - Marty talks about the importance of hiring quality people and paying them accordingly 00:25:00 - Jason starts discussing the onboarding process and probation period for new hires 00:27:15 - Jason shares his thoughts on the importance of continual evaluation and feedback for new hires 00:28:30 - Discussion on the importance of cultural fit in the hiring process 00:29:30 - Marty wraps up the discussion on recruitment, summarizing key points ---