How to Avoid Burnout and Still Grow Your Business

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 233 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jace and I'm here with Nick and Marty. How you doing Marty?

Marty · 00:06Going well, thanks Jace. Uh, going a bit better than a lot of business owners out there, mate. I've, uh, I've been running the traps and talking to a fair few business owners and it's, it's amazing how many people are working harder than ever and are just stuck in their business.

Marty · 00:22Like they're the main revenue driver. It's like they're working five jobs. They might be turning over 800 to 1.2 mil, and they've got teams sort of building underneath them. But because they're not giving any time to those teams, uh, because they're trying to generate the revenue, they're basically cooking themselves and they're, you know, they're suffering personally, suffering in their relationships with their kids and you know, their wife or partner.

Marty · 00:48And it's, um. And I just feel like we've gotta, uh, we've gotta do something about it lads. We've gotta, uh, we've gotta be able to draw these business owners out, small business owners, and actually start to delegate a bit

Marty · 01:00more effectively. And I, I was looking up some stats. And just in regards to just burnout rates and, um, what I was reading was 45% of business owners are pretty much burnt out, which is, uh, interesting in itself.

Marty · 01:15Um, you know, and, and solo business owners. I. Consultants are actually burning out 2.25 times to that with people that work within bigger teams as well. Obviously the camaraderie has an impact and people are sort of, uh, leveraging, uh, support across, uh, different sectors. And another interesting stat, 52% of female business owners, uh, were suffering mental burnout as well.

Marty · 01:41So whether they're even taking more on board than, than the guys, but I think we've gotta do something about it. Uh. Nick, uh, what are your thoughts on that? Have you seen it with people you've spoken to and, oh, mate, just a struggling business owner here doing, doing

Nick · 01:56five jobs? Does that answer your question?

Nick · 02:01Uh, it doesn't change. Does it really? Uh, it doesn't change. Look, it just, um, well it does change, I think just to a different, um, yeah. Just at different levels. But yeah, look, I totally agree with you and I think that's why so many businesses fail and, um. I can relate as well. There's times in business where you think, why am I doing all this?

Nick · 02:20Is it worth it? But then you, you've gotta, you gotta make sure you're on the right path and you have the right plan and you stick to it and work through those times. But I think if you working in your business, uh, for a long, long time, I think it's got an expiry date. It's like staying in the same job.

Nick · 02:39For 30 years. Not many people do that. So if you're not, if you're not in your business, making changes, growing it, changing your role in the business, and I've mentioned this before, I think the reason I've survived in business so long is because my roles, uh, evolve generally each year, um, or at least every couple of years.

Nick · 02:58But I think if you're stuck doing the same

Nick · 03:00thing over and over again and you can't see any growth or what the next phase looks like, I can see how people would burn out and, um. You comment there on females, it was really interesting. And you know, I'm a recent father, as people might know. So I see the toll, um, motherhood in a, not in a, in a bad way, just the, um, the, the reliance on, on, on mom from, from kids.

Nick · 03:25And of course as dads we help and we take on a lot of the load, but there's just no doubt, particularly in the early days, that the females do take on more, um, generally speaking. Um, and then if you're trying to get back to work and balance that. Maybe that has an impact. So yeah, looking, looking forward to ripping into this topic.

Jason · 03:40Working with a lot of business owners as well. Couldn't agree more in a sense, Marty, than what you brought to the table. It's one thing for the data to say something, but then, uh, you know, the three of us work with a lot of business owners. So, you know, if I turn around and say, well, Marty, this, this is doesn't, doesn't ring a bell.

Jason · 03:55I don't. I don't hear anyone talking about burnout, but there's the ones as well that

Jason · 04:00know they're burnt out and know they're struggling. But then there's the ones also that are kind of faking it till they make it. I'm almost more worried about they, them who kind of continue to hustle and run a million miles an hour and juggle a whole bunch of things.

Jason · 04:12And before you know it, there's, you know, there's more businesses than ever falling over right now and you know, they're doing it really tough. But, you know, I was gonna ask Marty. What, what do you think, why do you think burnout's becoming so common? Or why do you think these numbers the way they are? Is, is it the misconception that to run a business you've gotta hustle hard and work all these hours?

Jason · 04:29Or, you know, what, what is driving it, you think?

Marty · 04:32Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's interesting. It's, it's from the point of view that I think people see it almost as a trophy that there. Doing everything in the business. And there's a, and I think the question is always to ask whether you want to be a consultant or you want to be a business owner.

Marty · 04:49You have to get that. And a lot of consultants feel like they're very good at what they do, and they should transition to being a business owner and build a bigger business. But it's not always their personality makeup

Marty · 05:00as well. So I think you've gotta be really clearly defined as to, okay, am I a consultant?

Marty · 05:05If you're a consultant, you wanna be earning probably, you know, two to three times more. Than what you would as, as you know, as an employed role or business owner, just purely because you might not be able to sell the asset on the back end. Some people with product may be able to, but you've gotta consider that.

Marty · 05:22But what I find is when consultants try and transition into business owners, they spend a lot of money on making the business look bigger without really detailing. What the business needs to do for them as a business owner and bring good people in, strong sales team. Um, so it, there's this, this moment in the transition where it becomes more superficial without results actually coming in.

Marty · 05:49And cash flows is always. Something which can, you know, derail business owners pretty quick. So I think always as a first point of call, I think you really gotta understand and

Marty · 06:00map out a plan over, you know, one month, three months, 12 months, as to how you are gonna generate the revenues in that transition across.

Marty · 06:08And maybe put some timeframes around that with, with some modeling. 'cause, uh, 'cause what I, what I'm seeing in the small business sector. Is people that are building smaller teams and giving them no attention. Mm-hmm. And they're, the business owner's still running all the revenues and then the people are becoming disenfranchised 'cause they're not getting support.

Marty · 06:32And then the business owner's annoyed because they're paying them a wage. And they think they should just deliver because the business owner could do it. And it's almost a whole shift of perspective. As a business owner, you've really gotta model out the different stages of growth. In business, it might be, all right, we want to get to, you know, from one person or two people to six, then we go from six to 20, which is gonna look different again than it might be 20 to 50.

Marty · 06:58So you've gotta be able to

Marty · 07:00model and really go through. The dynamics of what that looks like. Not just do it because you think that is the right thing to do. And I'm being, I'm being maybe a little bit harsh there. It's uh, people aren't doing it willingly. It's sort of just happening because that's where their skillset is.

Marty · 07:16And then the other thing I'm finding is they don't wanna let go of the skillset that creates the revenue because now you're getting a compounding negative effect that can dismantle the whole thing. So it's, uh. It, it's a really interesting dance and it's something that really has to be given a lot of thought and given a lot of planning, um, to ensure that what you're doing is the right thing to do because you don't want to undo, you know, the good work you've done as a consultant as well.

Marty · 07:43Um, resonate.

Jason · 07:46Definitely a hundred percent. Wait, what, what do you think are the ways, I mean, is there a way somebody identifies this? I mean, is it just knowing you're working too many hours and feeling burnt out and, you know, to, to kind of get to that mindset shift point?

Jason · 08:00As a business owner, I. Is it handing off just an X number of tasks or looking at your roles and responsibilities and trying to think, what could I get rid of that I shouldn't be doing?

Jason · 08:08You know, when you think about the five hats or more that a business owner wears, do you have a bit of a, I guess, a bit of a, a roadmap of where to start, Marty, and what the steps would be?

Marty · 08:17Yeah, well, well I've certainly been in that circumstance previously, my first business where I was trying to do, do it all, and it was a bit of a trophy, right?

Marty · 08:25It was a bit of, look at me, I can do this. Why can't you? That, that's a really good, that's a really good model for growing a business, isn't it? So it's, um, so I get it, but I think I. And it might be just, you know, again, I talk about perspective. I always thought you had to work extremely hard to get any form of reward that was in my own psyche, and that was like, it was a good thing and it was a bad thing as well.

Marty · 08:52So the thing that I've learned as I've got older is how can you scale with a sense of ease and simplicity as well?

Marty · 09:00You know, so how do we. How do we do that as business owners where we get some form of, and I, I don't like the word balance 'cause there's always effort. That's, that's going into a business, there's no doubt about it.

Marty · 09:11But how do you get the business to do what you want it to do? And how do you provide opportunities for obviously people and clients within that business as well? This is not just a handball, this is a well thought out idea of going, okay, how can I now. Do the things I want in my business. So what am I good at?

Marty · 09:30I might be good at the high deal level or bringing great clients to the business. I might be good at leading people within the business. Um, I might be great at, um, the financial operations. And so where is my skillset and then where can I put that skillset? That's the highest impact in the business to deliver a result.

Marty · 09:50But in doing that, once you've established what's good for you, um, and what you want to do. Then you've gotta build great teams and great

Marty · 10:00leadership around the other aspects of the business as well. And what I'm finding is that's where it's spread really thin. You've got a lot of business owners going, I'd love to be doing that, or I want to be doing that in the business, but I just can't sacrifice And, and they think it's a jump off a cliff, but I'd rather someone.

Marty · 10:17Mm. If they're gonna jump off a cliff, actually have a parachute and actually build, you know, build a model and a transition period. You know how we've talked about when you're starting a business, you want six months, nine months of income, so you are not under stress right away. Well, maybe you've gotta put time into the sales team, um, in order to create a result that takes away, you know, your need of providing a hundred percent of the income.

Marty · 10:45It might be 50% of the income. So you might stagnate it and transition it over a period of time. And every business owner and every business is gonna be different. But what I find is they're hanging on, hanging on, and then they jump off the cliff and all hell breaks loose. 'cause

Marty · 11:00they're trying to build models.

Marty · 11:01Now they're not particularly skilled in doing that. And that's where they need the guidance to go. Well, hang on. Let's not just go there right now. Let's map out what you wanna do, what it looks like. Where do you want the business to be in 12 months? What's the business doing? What's its delivering? Let's set KPIs.

Marty · 11:18Let's make sure we're getting high performance salespeople. Um, instead of, you'll find in that small business sector, is everyone underperforms the business owner. That's terrible. Terrible. You've gotta, that's a lack of confidence in the business model and system. You know that that business owner's not confident in bringing the best people to that business.

Marty · 11:39At some subliminal level. They're not sure that that person's best place there. It's a confidence thing a lot of the time. But when you know you've got strong systems, like I know with Innovate and Future, there are strong systems in play. You know that when you are bringing a mortgage broker in to innovate.

Marty · 11:56They've got the highest chance of performing because of the support structure that's

Marty · 12:00there. The mentorship, leadership and systems in play, like you can confidently go. We know a top performing broker at 60 mil can do a hundred at Innovate. There's no doubt about it. But you can't make that call if you haven't set up that whole infrastructure.

Marty · 12:15And that's where the problem, sometimes it's fear, sometimes it's financial fear, sometimes it's skill, sometimes it's just not having another business partner, um, to be able to nut this through effectively. But that's where you need to get advice, either off other business owners who have done it, uh, business advisors, whatever the case may be, but just getting.

Marty · 12:35The, the advice, so you could streamline a tangible plan of attack to be able to get to the other side of it so you can really enjoy your business and not cook yourself.

Nick · 12:45I think you're spot on, but I, I think the scary part for people, um, is, you know, and I, I'll, I'll refer to our business. Yeah. We've got amazing systems and people and whatnot, but it's a very expensive business to

Nick · 13:00run.

Nick · 13:00And as is correct, as is any business our size, um, you've got a big fixed cost line. So I think. That is what scares people and maybe that's why they don't take the jump. Um, but to your point earlier, you've just gotta have a plan and you've gotta speak to people that have been there and done it, possibly made mistakes or done it the right way the first time, if they have happy days.

Nick · 13:20But, you know, if I think about. Uh, let's talk about a service based business. 'cause uh, that's probably where most of the burnout is. Yeah. You know, where people are getting paid for their time, their client facing time, a bit harder to scale than a product business. So, um, the scariest thing for, um, a consultant, as you referred to them as a business owner, is to bring someone in who does what they do.

Nick · 13:44Now it's scary because a salesperson is generally. Reasonably expensive salespeople generally can be harder to manage, um, than people in in administration just because they're hungry. Uh, salespeople will have a lot of needs because they will

Nick · 14:00want the tools that they need to succeed, so that, that is a very scary jump.

Nick · 14:04So. Yeah, if I think back to the way that I did things, um, and probably my biggest lesson was you've gotta have baby steps in growth. So the reality is you're in business for a lot of people because you're really good at the client facing stuff and the sales because you think, oh, this is great. How good is this?

Nick · 14:22I'm, I'm gonna start a business. So for in, in the early days, for you to take yourself away from that, I think is a, a mistake. So. The best thing that you can do, in my opinion, is how do I leverage my skillset the most? And you did mention that. So your first, your first, um, step into growth should just be administration.

Nick · 14:43What are, who can help me do double what I'm doing now and at the same time possibly reduce the burnout factor, right? Because they're not in the office on a Saturday catching up on bookwork. So how do I get people around me? Initially, and that could just be one admin person. It might start at

Nick · 15:00three days a week, then that admin person goes to five days a week.

Nick · 15:03And then you might have someone who's really good in admin and then you can progress them. But I think you should have a couple of people around you before you even think about going into another sales, um, uh, executing another sales role. Because to your point, Marty, you can't just hire salespeople and it all works.

Nick · 15:20And I've learned that the hard way. You've gotta have that system and that, um, edge, that training built out, you've gotta have the, the lead flow for them. How do you do that? Well, you probably need to do it with help externally, and you need time to do that. So. I think the best way to do it is say, well, I can get someone admin three days a week at 50 grand a year or even offshore, that's gonna help me bring another 30% of revenue.

Nick · 15:46I can park that revenue away and I can, you know, make sure I'm hitting my, this is your, this is, um, this is your area. Ja. But I can make sure I'm hitting my minimum net profit targets and I'm also parking some money away that if I go and

Nick · 16:00get a gun sales person, I can commit to them for six months and I don't need them.

Nick · 16:05Um, bringing volume in because this is the other thing. When you bring salespeople in, I've learned this again the hard way as of you with me, Marty. It takes a long time for salespeople to get traction in a new environment. So as a business owner, I. If they're really eating into your cash flows, you get stressed.

Nick · 16:21It impacts your ability to do what you do. So you need to have, um, a runway for them, whether it's, it's industry dependent, is it six months? Is it 12 months? But I know in our business it takes salespeople 12 months to be, um, you know, to to be really set and then 18 to 24 months for us to get really good profitability off them.

Nick · 16:42So that's a really long journey. Um. There is a long lead time for our business as far as when we see clients to when revenue hits the bank account. But a lot of other service based industries would be the same. So for me, it's baby steps in growth, um, you know, go with the low hanging fruit. If I'm bringing in

Nick · 17:00800 grand a year, how do I bring in 1.2?

Nick · 17:03Myself without another, without another salesperson. So that's where people like yourself, Marty, can come in, um, map out a proper plan and, um, make growth not seem, you know, so scary and it gets scary.

Marty · 17:17I like what you said are the incremental steps and mm-hmm. And, and what I've seen over the past years is a lot of people like all this stuff on Blitzscaling and people get bullish and.

Marty · 17:27I mean, this is, we're talking a different ballpark, right? And like people bring on three salespeople outta nowhere. Big expense. Don't give them any attention, you know? Not formulated systems and you know, they just burn their dough. But just like you said, like Nick said, you know, get the support to do more of what you do well.

Marty · 17:46And when you bring that first person on, go out there looking for a gun, you know, looking for the best person you can afford to get them on board. Because if you can build a team of high performers,

Marty · 18:00starting from the first hire and now. You're not always gonna strike gold, right? We know that. But if you can, at least in your mindset, know what you know, what is a good performer from what you are doing, and try and attract that person in, then immediately you are taking that next step of someone that's gonna do very, very well in your business.

Marty · 18:19And you are gonna be able to spend time with one person instead of three. That's not gonna impact the whole, the whole revenues, you know, that you, you're trying to produce. So, again. Bite-sized steps, you know, get the plate spitting. Well, when it's spitting well, creates more revenue. Then you get another person and another person and all of a sudden you've got something

Nick · 18:42I'll, I'll just say too, mate, I love that you brought up the blitz scaling and I think people would read a lot of these books.

Nick · 18:47Um, you need to understand. What industry you're in and whether or not that is feasible and if you're in a service based industry, as an accountant, as a mortgage broker, as

Nick · 19:00a lawyer, I. Scaling is very, very difficult because it's all about people and you need people producing those hours and people are expensive.

Nick · 19:10So, you know, it's not a product where you can just increase the marketing, um, bring, bring more in online, you know. Get a bigger warehouse and, and whatnot and, and scale up quickly. You need the right people in your business. And that's probably the hardest part of being in business, is getting the right people and then you need to make sure that they succeed.

Nick · 19:30So it's, it's very difficult to scale a service based industry that takes a lot of time. And I think people just need to be aware of that when they are reading books like, um, blitzscaling, is that what you said?

Marty · 19:44Yeah. Blitz scaling. Yeah. Don't, don't blitz fail. Yeah. Jace, what, what have you seen in your own business from, you know, from you, you've obviously had rapid growth and would've learned a lot of lessons along the way.

Marty · 19:57Um, in hindsight, what have,

Marty · 20:00what have you learned, you know, in regards to building a business and bringing people on and maintaining cultures while trying to do it? Um, because you've been pretty aggressive in, you know, and that's, that's good. But yeah, a lot of lessons come through that.

Jason · 20:12Yeah. It's probably a whole podcast episode in lessons learned over eight years.

Jason · 20:15No. Um, I think, I think realistically, you know, and, and flowing through some of this as well, most business owners start a business because they've got something that they, they specialize in or they feel strongly about, or that that superpower that is, you know. I love sales, and as an accountant, there's not that many accountants that want to get in front of a crowd and sell, do a podcast, and sell, and, and it's more selling value.

Jason · 20:36The, the ultimate reason why I exist and in the business came to exist was I wanted to help people have a better future. I wanted to help people have a better life, and for me, being able to, you know, translate that value by talking to people and talking about what we do and asking them questions about where they want to go, that was my superpower of any time I got in front of a business owner, I could instantly gain their trust and then want to help them get

Jason · 21:00to where they got to.

Jason · 21:01But then all of a sudden, when you start scaling and growing and the different hats that I started to wear. I started to lose sight of a bit of what was the reason I existed and what was the thing I did well, and all of a sudden I was doing tax returns and financials and I was in the trenches a bit, and then you were training some admin and then you're bringing on bookkeeping.

Jason · 21:19And unless you've got a very deliberate plan as to what your business should look like, where it's gonna go. Who are the key hires? You need to build a high performing team. You can start to make very shortsighted reaction, like reactive decisions based on getting busy, having too many hats on. So I think in it, in the early days, like you know of, of the og, Jason, Greg kind of version of the business, it was shit, we're getting busy, quick hire some admin.

Jason · 21:44Oh great. Reach out to someone. We need that account and hire that person. And it was just filling capacity because in professional services, as you touched on Nick, the more humans you've got. The more time you can sell and the more really production you could do. But all these years on,

Jason · 22:00what we've learned is without the correct systems and procedures and workflows and practice management systems and you know, reviewing wip, charging the correct price, you can have all the clients in the world, but if you do a whole bunch of work for them and don't charge them the right value.

Jason · 22:16You make no money and, and the business goes nowhere. So yeah, there's, there's just so much to focus on as a business owner and the lessons are, are far and wided as to where they've got to. But ultimately it really does come down to, you know, creating that high performing team, having great culture so that people want to come to work and they understand why they exist, uh, and mapping it out properly with a longer term vision rather than the short term reactions.

Jason · 22:39Um, so anyone who gets into business, you can start to think that short term, what do I need to do? What's my cashflow look like? The bigger purpose of why you exist and what you're trying to build. If you know a bit of that in advance, it makes the decision making day to day a lot easier. And I think it was not revisiting that early enough.

Jason · 22:56In the early days, we had this big idea of would be this many people and

Jason · 23:00would be in this many locations. Then a couple of years in, it was like, well, is that plan really serving us? And it wasn't. So we had to kind of reinvent the wheel a little bit. But yeah, I mean, yeah, you can go any, any

Nick · 23:10action. Yeah.

Nick · 23:11Well, it's just such a good point, uh, around what do you, what do you want out of this? And um, here's the thing. Look, not many people want to do what you and I are doing, Jason. And that's, that's more than okay. So hundred percent. For me, I wanted to build a business and I wanted to, to have a big team and, and, and go that way.

Nick · 23:29But some people. If they go into business, they might just want to wanna create a really good income for themselves. Because even though you and I and, and Marty we're building these big businesses, at the end of the day, it's all about the income on the bottom line. Mm-hmm. And what we're actually trying to, you know, put in the, put on the table for our family.

Nick · 23:46Whether no matter how big the business is, the business is big, there's no money at the end of the day, what's the point? And those are the things that we've learned. So, you know, I would challenge people if you are burnt out, um. Why are you burnt out? Like is the

Nick · 24:00business going in the direction you want it to?

Nick · 24:02Or did you really only ever wanna be a one or two person operator and earn really good money? So if you are burned out and you're doing too much, hypothetically, you look at your client base and you say, well, I've got too many clients. How did I get that many clients? That's not where I wanted to be. Who do I like dealing with?

Nick · 24:18I'm gonna cut the bottom 20%. I'm gonna increase my fees by 20%. See what happens. And you know, you hear these cool stories of people that. I'm gonna triple my fees or double my fees and just see what happens. And you see their best clients stay and they make the same amount of money doing 70%, 60% of the work.

Nick · 24:33So I think, well,

Jason · 24:34they make more

Nick · 24:35money doing

Jason · 24:36less work half the time. It turns out that way too. Yeah.

Nick · 24:38And that's, it's such a common story and I can really, um, I actually really believe it. So I love what you said there because if, did you get busy just because you're good at what you do and then you started taking on all these clients, but it's never really what you wanted, if that's the case.

Nick · 24:54Decide what you want. I want to be a one or two person operator. I'm gonna up my fees and just see what

Nick · 25:00happens. If I still haven't got clients drop off, I'm gonna up 'em again. Um, or if I don't wanna do that, I'm just gonna tell 20% of my client base that I'm just not, I'm just not right to provide them the service, um, that they need.

Nick · 25:11So, you know, understand what you want. Sometimes you don't have to grow and people get busy without even really, or get bigger without even wanting to do that. It's just organic because they're good at what they do.

Marty · 25:22Yeah. And, and generally when you start focusing on those high end type, you know, clients, if that's what ends up happening, you know, the quality of work goes up too, because you've got, you've got more time to deliver to those, to those people as well.

Marty · 25:35And it's not about, and you've, you've both explained it really well. It's not about how many numbers of. People, how many number of people are in the business? It's what is that business delivering, you know, financially with the amount of people that are there. So for young players, really important, not just to think about perspective, think about real financial disciplines in your growth and

Marty · 26:00that, you know, again, you'll make different decisions based and we've all done it.

Marty · 26:03We've all, you know, extended where we shouldn't have and had to regress sometimes. So don't worry, we've, we've. We've all been there. We've all been there. But it's really important to be able to, you know, be able to think upon it in terms of exactly what Nick was saying. Jace, you know, what do you want from your business?

Marty · 26:20And it's just people are stuck in quicksand. When they're in it all. They're flapping their wings on everything and they haven't got clarity. As to what that is. And sometimes they just need to be pulled out and worked, work a direction and then start building around that direction as well. Because what's the point of burning out if, um, if it doesn't need to happen that way?

Marty · 26:40But people feel like there's no choice, they're stuck. So really interesting that, uh, you know, you found ways through, but even finding ways through you, you can regress. And, you know, we've all made mistakes around that. And I, I feel for these people because they're. They're, you know, they, they're decent good people and they're just, yeah, haven't been at that point where

Marty · 27:00they've overextended, um, and, and done it with fluency.

Marty · 27:04They've done it because they have ambition, which I've got no problem with that at all. But it's just, yeah, like you say, it's an incremental move sometimes and that's gonna create a bigger compounding move down the end. It might be in two, three years time, but, um, don't get too impatient 'cause uh, it costs money.

Marty · 27:21Impatient

Jason · 27:22a hundred percent. Marty, if somebody's come across this podcast, maybe they're not regular listeners, uh, maybe they are and they're burnt out, or they're feeling stressed, or they think, you know, they are wearing too many hats in business. What is the next step? Do, do they get in touch with you, Marty?

Jason · 27:35Is that, is that what would be a good first step to discuss what's going on in their world?

Marty · 27:39Give me a call, set up a plan. Within three months, you'll have a direction, if not three weeks, hopefully you'll be, uh, you'll be pretty much on your bike after that first session. 'cause sometimes, and, and we know this as business owners because we're talking to other business owners all the time, sometimes it's one conversation where people go.

Marty · 27:59Oh, I, I

Marty · 28:00didn't see it from that perspective, or I was, I was blind to that. They might be exceptional at what they do. Like I said, it's no, it's just another perspective and then a plan and a bridge to get them to where they want to go. So yeah, gimme a call. Yeah, for sure.

Jason · 28:15It's, uh, time to free up that head space so that you can actually think strategically, rather, rather than wearing so many hats and being stuck in your business.

Jason · 28:21So, uh, if you are listening now, thank you so much for making it to the end of the episode. Please give us a, like, follow, subscribe, all the things that you do, depending on the platform that you're on. We really appreciate each and every one of you, and until next time.

Marty · 28:34Plan to fail or fail to plan. I dunno which one makes sense, but you gotta do something different, otherwise you're gonna drown.

Marty · 28:41Game over.

Jason · 28:44This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The conversations are of a general nature and do not qualify as financial or tax advice. We recommend before you make any financial decisions, you consult a licensed professional. Individuals on the podcast may hold positions in the companies

Jason · 29:00discussed. ---