The Power of Early Retirement Planning

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 196 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase, I'm here with Nick and Marty. How are we going today, fellas?

Marty · 00:07Going well, thanks, Jase. Microsoft trying to shut down the world, ex presidents getting shot at. You know, challenges out there, but hey, mate, I'm battling through. No one's shooting at me, at least no one that I know of yet.

Marty · 00:19So, but feeling good. Uh, Nick, how are you, my friend?

Nick · 00:22I'm good, mate, I'm good. And isn't it good that, uh, we've come to today's episode without any of those topics to discuss, you know, we're, we're going against the grain. I'm sick of hearing about Trump. You're no doubt sick of, sick of hearing about, uh, things that you can't access on your phone because, because, uh, what, what, what was the business that went down?

Nick · 00:41I've forgotten his name. So, you know, we're bringing the real, the real impact, impactful things to people, you know, no one cares about that stuff. We're talking about the good stuff. Yeah.

Marty · 00:53Nah, they're down 14 percent anyway.

Jason · 00:57Mate, I'm good. I'm good. It's, um, I'll

Jason · 01:00always love coming into a recording hot off the weekends.

Jason · 01:02So that was a, it was a good one on Sunday. The blue skies and sunshine was out. We're at time of recording for this run. Melbourne was on yesterday. Um, so yeah, I think there was like 26, 000 people got out and about in Melbourne and went for a trot, you know, through the city, down the docklands, around the botanical gardens.

Jason · 01:19So plenty of good vibes around. That's what we like. Uh, how'd you go? Uh, good. Yeah, happy. Greg, Greg was the one 45 pacer. He's, um, really progressed in his running career to now where he's getting, um, the call up to be, you know, the, you know, the guys that run with the balloons tied to their backs and then everybody follows them to try and get a time.

Jason · 01:38Greg was the one hour 45 pacer. So I got to watch him run along with a balloon tied above his head. So yeah, he, he nailed it. He ran one 44 and 57 seconds. So for anyone who tried to run with him, they would have been. Bang on happy with their time. So that's what we're about here. Numbers, numbers, it's all happening.

Jason · 01:57And, um, I'm glad you didn't mention anything about

Jason · 02:00the bombers. Um, so that that's worked out well for, for Marty and I.

Nick · 02:03Look, as an Adelaide pro supporter, you, you can't, you can't really be gloating about a two point win. Um, so I know you boys are suffering and I'm not interested in, I'm not interested in doubling down on that, to be honest.

Nick · 02:17So happy to move on and wish you all the best for the rest of the year.

Jason · 02:21Uh, well, thank you, mate. Thank you. Well, uh, you know, in focusing on, on the good things in life, it's providing value to the lovely numbers game audience and, uh, Freddie Bombers fans out there. We feel your pain, but, uh, Nick, what have you brought to the table for us today?

Jason · 02:34What, what, what are we giving out? I just want to talk about.

Nick · 02:37really. And the, um, I guess the, the way that Aussie property contributes to retirement and the way that retirees are actually thinking about their property when it comes to retirement, um, the reality is for us as financial planners, when most mom and dads come into us and start to set up a retirement plan, um, or, uh,

Nick · 03:00already retired.

Nick · 03:00Already retired. The, the family home contributes to that retirement plan in a big way. And I think people should be thinking about it earlier than what they do. Um, you think about your family home as a, as a roof over your head. You think about your family home. Uh, somewhere where you make memories and you, and you raise your kids, but at some stage you move out of that home just because kids move away.

Nick · 03:27Um, if you've got a big house, it becomes too big to maintain. It might have a second floor and you don't feel like going upstairs anymore. Um, or you simply might be, you know, moving to another state. So your, your home, uh, lays foundations for what retirement looks like. And I think the earlier we can think about that, the better.

Nick · 03:47I think in our country, there's so many people that are, that are asset rich and cash poor, which is actually a really good thing. Um, because you know, we're, we're asset rich because we've been very fortunate to own own property in

Nick · 04:00this great country of ours that just keeps going up and up and up. Um, but at the same time, you need an income when it comes to retirement and you lose your ability to earn and your property can, can go a long way.

Nick · 04:12Uh, towards making sure you've got a relevant, uh, or an appropriate income in retirement. So, you know, we, we're encouraged people, encouraging people to think about it more and more, um, in their younger years and, you know, the elephant in the room at the moment, as far as property goes, is land tax. So the, the age old strategy of buying investment property, negative gear, um, you know, build, build your portfolio that way, whilst it is an awesome strategy and people should definitely consider it, It's very hard to cashflow properties these days.

Nick · 04:44You know, you haven't just got land tax, you've got the increase in landlords insurance, you've got body corporates increasing, um, interest rates is the obvious one, which we think will go down, but to no, to, to no degree where they were, um, so holding investment properties is

Nick · 05:00now a real concern for a lot of people.

Nick · 05:02And then second of that, when you sell that property, you've got capital gains that you've got to deal with because properties in this country continue to go up. Yeah. So the argument is, well, do you take all that money and just pour it into a bigger family home? You get a better asset for your family because you're putting all that cash flow into funding and repayment.

Nick · 05:20And then when you sell that property, it's tax free. And this is the thing, at some stage you are going to sell that property. It is absolutely 99 percent of the time people are selling their family home. So the challenge is, do you put more money into investment properties or do you just buy a bigger house?

Nick · 05:38You've still got the same amount of money invested. So this is what I want to talk about today. Um, and the reason I wanted to talk about is I just saw something online in an article that suggested that retirees in Australia are sitting on 1. 3 trillion of equity in their own or occupied homes. Now, if they were to access just

Nick · 06:0020 percent of that equity in some way, we would add 260 billion, uh, in cash to people's retirements.

Nick · 06:07So I think the, the age old, uh, theory of, you know, just hold the asset. I don't want to touch my home. I don't want to go into debt. But at what stage in life do you get to the point where you say, okay, well, I've only got 20 years to live or 30 years to live. I know, I know I'll need to think about this house as an asset and an investment that can fund my retirement or fund what I want to do in life.

Nick · 06:30So. Thought it'd be good to talk about that. Um, yeah, over to you boys. Thoughts?

Marty · 06:36Yeah, good. Great topic, Nick. It's, uh, yeah, I'm closer to death than you guys. I'm pretty sure, uh, being 52 and things that I have to consider, but I think I brought this up the other week, just in passing, just a conversation we had, Nick.

Marty · 06:50In regards to like, I was basically thinking in my own head, what's the point of having something that's, you know, you, you got a capital

Marty · 07:00gains tax on the backend, you've got land tax. The cost of holding is a lot more expensive when you could strategically. Get that, get that home at a level where you're not going to have capital gains and then have a strategy of building a business where you can generate cash flows and pumping it into superannuation as well.

Marty · 07:20That's tax effective as well. So it's almost this triangle. And, and again, it's, it's, it's funny because just because as a nation, we might've done something one particular way for one time, doesn't mean we can't change it up depending on circumstances that are presented as well. This is where we talk about always getting, uh, professional support around that.

Marty · 07:42Uh, an accountant, financial planner, you know, finance broker, um, you know, legal. Uh, it's, it's really important to go, all right, well, where is my money going to best work for me in the future? And that might've changed from what it was 10, 15 years ago to what it is now.

Marty · 08:00And it's all the things we know. It's just, how do we, how do we bunch it up more effectively?

Marty · 08:05So I love that you've brought this up. Uh, Jase, anything that, uh, to add on that?

Jason · 08:09Well, yeah, definitely. I think, um, you know, we've talked about retirees and the thing that I think I often see with the people that we work with between Future Advisory and Innovate, the work that we get to do with our clients, we're having conversations with, you know, Younger Australians more and more in a sense.

Jason · 08:27Like, so we're starting to have these conversations earlier and when we're telling them, Hey, you know, would you like an introduction to the lovely team and innovate, they can have a look at your situation, review your super fund, have a look and they're going, ah, well, you know, I'm not going to be able to touch that money for 20, 30, 40 years.

Jason · 08:43What's the point? And there's a bit of this attitude or this idea that you need to be approaching retirement age before you start to think about what to do with your super or what to do with the family home. I think it's a great topic to bring up, Nick, because not only are we going to change the mindset that let's not wait until it's nearly retirement,

Jason · 09:00um, retirement time, let's start to have these conversations sooner so that we can make.

Jason · 09:04huge impact on what retirement looks like for us by making smarter decisions by, as Marty said, working with professionals.

Nick · 09:11Yeah. And just having an understanding of how the home fits into the financial plan. And we've, we've heard numerous times that your home is the worst asset, but you generally hear that from, uh, people overseas and, you know, particularly Americans, because you think about your home, you have a, an exorbitant repayment on that house and it returns no income.

Nick · 09:33But the reality is in this country, we are homeowners. The great Australian dream, that's what we want. We park the fact that we could maybe get a better return somewhere else if we really wanted to and we're happy to rent. That just doesn't happen in this country and that's just, that's just the reality of it.

Nick · 09:50So when we're putting so much money into an asset and that's what it is, it's an asset, it's not a home, it's actually an asset. We need to understand

Nick · 10:00how that is going to help us retire. Because as I said at the start, what I can guarantee you is you will sell it and it will provide you a lump sum of money because you will generally downsize, um, and go into something that's smaller.

Nick · 10:13So I like to encourage people to think about when they're thinking about their retirement and building wealth. If they're not someone out there who wants to make a heap of investments, there's three things you should be thinking about. Number one is your superannuation. Of course, it's a really good tax environment or a tax vehicle, tax saving vehicle to invest.

Nick · 10:31Number two, you might have some investments outside of that. So you might still have an investment property, or you might have a share portfolio, um, or it might even be a business that you're, that you're building. That's, um, that that's holding value that you can realize at some stage. And number three, think about your family home because if you're sitting on a 4, 000, 000 asset and it's not crazy to think about something being worth 4, 000, 000, most, most homes now, if you want to buy a home in a really good area in Melbourne, a family home, you're paying

Nick · 11:001.

Nick · 11:00plus. Fast forward 20, 30 years, it's going to be a 4, 000, 000 asset. You can probably sell that for 4, 000, 000 downsized going to something at 2. And you got 1. 5 million in equity that you can then use to fund retirement, whether that goes into super or some other income producing vehicle. So we're just saying, understand your home and how it's actually going to contribute to your financial plan and, and don't consider it as just a home, consider it as an investment and an asset because we do pour so much money into it.

Nick · 11:32So the things to consider, this is an example is maybe stretch yourself. What are the good areas that you can, that you can move to? Like when you, when you are buying a house, really think about it as a financial asset. Well, okay, is there a better option if I go an extra hundred grand? I didn't really want to, but if I go an extra hundred, two hundred, what's that going to mean in 20 years time?

Nick · 11:56Because it's actually probably going to impact the prosperity of your retirement. So it's

Nick · 12:00thinking again outside the family home and Thinking about that vehicle as an investment.

Marty · 12:04Yeah. Love that. Where are you going to keep more of your money? You know, where are you going to keep more of your money?

Marty · 12:10That's what you got to think about. And again, and someone once told me it was good advice. They're saying we generally as investors and business owners tend to think about revenues coming off the assets we buy. But if you look at it as a more holistic picture, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be generating.

Marty · 12:29Um, income off that mortgage or off that home initially, it could be you have a business. It could be you have other avenues to generate, uh, you know, cashflow in order, looking at the bigger picture. And what you just got to work out is, you know, how much more are you going to keep by putting that And putting it into super, and you've got to look at that holistic approach in regards to, you know, keeping the most of your effort that you're putting in, in building whatever wealth you're looking to build.

Marty · 12:59So I

Marty · 13:00love this topic because it, it shifts the perspective of being siloed in your thinking and opens it up to look at it as a whole game. And, uh, how can you win that game, you know, tax effectively, legally, But I think, you know, there's a lot of consultants to working from home at the moment, just out of a home office.

Marty · 13:18So I'm interested with Jace, if, if, if you are earning money as a consultant from the home, are there any compromises to the capital gain? Uh, no capital gain on your home.

Jason · 13:32Yeah, look, it's a great question, Marty. One that the ATO, you know, like to be all over as much as possible. Got to be careful when it is your main residence.

Jason · 13:39So if you do have the PPR, so primary place of residence, which is the main residence exemption. If you're trying to apply that to where you live, you ought to be careful about where, how you work from home. So the. Um, working from home and only claiming the set rate method or the hourly rate method for your home office, um, generally will keep your home tax exempt.

Jason · 13:59If

Jason · 14:00you then decide, well, no, I work from home flat out. So I'm going to, I'm going to claim, you know, the room that I work in plus a little bit of extra space makes up, call it 20 Of my home and it's dedicated work use. If you then claim 20 percent of your mortgage, 20 percent of your insurance, 20 percent of your other running costs, if you work it all out, when you sell your home at some point down the track, if you've been claiming all those expenses on your tax return to genuinely run an office from where you live.

Jason · 14:29The ATO is going to want their slice on the other side too. So if you were claiming 20 percent of the total cost of your home over that period, they're going to want 20 percent of the capital gain that you make when you sell your home. So you do have to be really careful how you claim your house expenses on your tax return if you are working from home.

Jason · 14:46Um, there are some cases where you can't get away with it at all. So let's say you were running a childcare business out of your garage. Even if you chose not to claim the expenses on your tax return, the HAO would turn around and say, well,

Jason · 15:00no, your home has been used as an income producing asset. It is now up for capital gains tax because you've been producing income from that home.

Jason · 15:08So yeah, heaps, heaps of minefields around that entire space, but you know, when we talk to clients. Ultimately, what we're trying to say is keep your main residence separate from tax. You want that to be a tax exempt asset so that one day when you sell it and you make a gain, that is your right, basically as an Australian under the main residence exemption, that all the profit you make on the home that you've lived in is tax free.

Jason · 15:31Um, you don't want to jeopardize that by, you know, unless, unless it's just genuine stuff where you need to help cashflow your life. So you might be Airbnb ing a room. Cool. That's fine. Some people need to do an Airbnb to keep the cashflow coming in, help with the mortgage repayments, help with cost of living.

Jason · 15:48All comes down to documentation. You're just going to keep good documentation on what you're doing, when you're doing it and a timeline and the intention. Um, you know, as I said, because sometimes we get years down the track and the

Jason · 16:00ATO has got the data, the ATO will know if you were, So if you're looking at putting the property on your tax return and declaring income, don't think that five or 10 years down the track when you sell, that the HO is just going to forget about it.

Jason · 16:11Eventually they'll send you a letter or they'll come knocking and they'll want their slice of that for sure.

Marty · 16:15Great to know the subtleties, you know, really great.

Nick · 16:18Just, just a real simple, simple tax question. If you're doing Airbnb, which I think a lot of people would be at the moment because of the, you know, the stress on, um, household budgets and whatnot, people are looking at, you know, Other ways to generate revenue.

Nick · 16:33Does that expose you to capital gains or no? Yep. It does.

Jason · 16:36So basically you're, you're, you're using your home as an income producing asset. So there's a tax implication. So basically anytime you can tie a tax implication to it, that's when it's likely the ATO are going to say that, you know, you have to pay capital gains tax.

Jason · 16:49So again, what you're trying to do is pro rata, the percentage of space that was made available, the amount of time it was made available, and actually quite complicated calculations, um, in the long

Jason · 17:00run, but, um, it all comes down to personal, personal circumstances at the time we had, um, at a client that for years was Airbnb being her property.

Jason · 17:09And, you know, the, the gains were so minimal. Um, and then the calculation to pay us to kind of work out the calculation on the CGT, like it ended up not really. being worthwhile by the time you then factored in capital gains tax. Um, yeah, a bit of a minefield, as I said. So, you know, something to always talk to your tax advisor about, you know, if you have an accountant and it's not future advisory and you're thinking about doing something like that, always recommend talking to professionals upfront first, because yeah, it's all, all too often, we get people that come to us years down the track that they've been doing it and didn't understand the tax implications upfront.

Jason · 17:44Yeah.

Marty · 17:44It's not until you hurt.

Nick · 17:46Yeah, that's right. And, and, and just going back to the, the family home, and this is one for you, Marty, I'd ask you if you're seeing this, but, you know, when I was thinking about this, I was like, well, how, how else can the family home help people get ahead? I think

Nick · 18:00the other thing we're seeing a lot of is guarantor loans and.

Nick · 18:04And we're saying, um, there's this big generational, um, change. I will transfer of wealth at the moment. And you've got the baby, not so much the baby boomer population, but, uh, the builders, um, the population before them that have become wealthy off property. Um, and we're seeing a transfer of wealth, um, not even so much to the baby boomers from the builders, to the baby boomers, cause the baby boomers.

Nick · 18:27They've made money because they're also in property. But it's that next generation or the, you know, they're skipping the kids and going to the grandkids to help them get into property. So I guess, you know, you can also think outside the box. If you're in this, if you're in retirement and you've got a massive asset that you just don't need, um, think about guarantor loans and, you know, how you can help, you know, Grandchildren into property, because we're seeing a bit of that at the moment as well.

Jason · 18:53Nick, I got, um, two questions for you, if I can follow up from that. Uh, the first one's around equity in the home. So obviously going

Jason · 19:00guarantor involves having equity in the home. Do you feel like people are using their equity as much as they could be, or do you think there might be a lack of understanding about how their equity could help them continue to get ahead in life?

Nick · 19:12Definitely a lack of understanding. I think if there is understanding, it's driven by, uh, kids that want to get into the market. I don't think older people would be there thinking I can actually be a guarantor for my child or my grandchild. And I want to go to my child or grandchild and educate them on getting into the market and how I can help them.

Nick · 19:34Because, you know, it might be a hundred thousand dollar deposit that's required. How many people have a hundred thousand dollars laying around that they can give? But quite often they might have a 2 million asset with no debt on it that they just don't. They don't need access to that equity given their stage in life.

Nick · 19:49So where I think they could be better is understanding how they can help the younger generation instead of waiting until inheritance comes. you know, you

Nick · 20:00can, you can actually help a lot earlier.

Jason · 20:02And is it, is there a bit of a lost opportunity as well? I mean, even taking away the guarantor side, but, um, a family home, let's say couple that aren't quite at retirement age yet, but their kids have moved out.

Jason · 20:13There's considerable amount of equity in the home. Maybe they don't want to buy an investment property and have to deal with land tax and all the other things that come with it. But is there also an opportunity to get that equity into, let's say the stock market or into super it's in some way, shape or form?

Nick · 20:27That's not the kettle of fish because, you know, to do that, you're really looking at leveraging and borrowing, and then you have to factor in other things like borrowing costs. Um, you know, so you, you, you're exposing yourself to market returns. So first thing is you need to make sure that market returns are going to outweigh your borrowing cost, plus the tax you're going to pay on any returns.

Nick · 20:48So, you know, I think, I think that's a more difficult one to, to push to people because there is a little bit of risk, um, associated. I guess where I'm coming from is, you

Nick · 21:00know, at some stage you are going to liquidate that house and at some stage you are going to take that money and you're going to put it into investment of some sort.

Nick · 21:08I know that because we see it every day in our office. So start to treat that house more as an investment and understand how it's going to actually play a role in your retirement.

Marty · 21:18And you do see a lot that family, that family wealth cycle in regards to, they don't really, the parents don't really want to generate an income cause it affects other, um, other retirement plans as well.

Marty · 21:31So they're happy to utilize the equity in order to let the kids start to build wealth on their own properties as well. So you see that a lot in this day and age, helping kids get in. It's a great strategy. Parents feel good about it. Kids feel great about it. They're in. And, um, as a family that, that wealth starts to grow, uh, in property.

Marty · 21:50So very commonly used now.

Jason · 21:52Yeah. I love it. The other one I had, Nick was curious to learn about downsize of contributions.

Nick · 21:58Yep. So I think, um,

Nick · 22:00I think Macy might've touched on this and we're probably due to get him back on. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's one of the only, uh, well, not one of the only, they're out.

Nick · 22:08There are numerous, but you've got, you've got a limited amount of opportunities to get money into super. Um, and the government has been pretty good in providing those opportunities, but the, the downsize of contribution is one, uh, 300, uh, 300, 000 per individual. So if you've got a couple that sell a house, they can actually take 600 K of, uh, that equity or those liquid funds and put that into super.

Nick · 22:31And that is a strategy that we see day in, day out. Um, In our office, obviously you take that 600k, particularly if you're in pension phase and it's coming time to retirement, you can put that money into super and that money can start earning you returns in super and providing you an income with no tax consequences.

Nick · 22:49So yeah, there's, there's, you know, it's, it's, it's one of the probably most used strategies in our office when it comes to retirement. Um, and again, I'll just go back to the

Nick · 23:00fact that people don't want a family home at some stage. Uh, there's complications with the size of the house, um, or they just want to purely live in another location.

Jason · 23:09Uh, it's good that you mentioned that too. And for those listening, if you didn't catch the Luke Mace episode, it's, uh, scroll back and find episode 175. It's financial planning for your future. So, um, I did remember this. I knew that's why it sounded familiar. It was an absolute banger and yeah, it'd be great to have Macy back on to, to keep unpacking how, you know, the, the numbers game audience can make the best of their financial future by.

Jason · 23:31Implementing some smart things along the way.

Nick · 23:33For sure.

Jason · 23:34That aside, apart from catching up on the Luke Mace episode of the numbers game, you could also, uh, definitely book yourself in a catch up with the innovate crew. Um, obviously personally, uh, my wife and I use, uh, Nick and the crew at innovate. And, uh, yeah, I definitely can't.

Jason · 23:49Speak highly enough of everyone at the innovate crew. So I N O V A Y T. com. au is generally the best way to go and find out some information and there's all these

Jason · 24:00beautiful signups to be able to book yourself in a free consult with the team. Um, if you are a future advisory client, you can definitely contact myself or any of the client managers directly.

Jason · 24:08And we'd love to have a chat to you about how, um, Nick and the crew can get around you and support you. Um, moving forward, if you haven't already been introduced, but yeah, I mean, our teams work pretty closely together. So I imagine most people would know about what you guys do. And is there anything in the moment, Nick or Marty, you know, from the team, if they do want to reach out to innovate anything specific or special they need to do?

Marty · 24:29I think at the moment it's, it's paramount, um, for lending just purely in regards to we're seeing. You know, three year fixed rates start to come down, you know, there's some shifting in longer term debt, um, right. So again, great time to review great time. If you're looking to acquire a business to ring in and we can support you with that, and also think about anyone from the age of 35 and beyond.

Marty · 24:55There's some outstanding strategies that you can put into play on the

Marty · 25:00financial wellbeing and wealth creation side with our planning division. Um, it's, and a lot of it, you just would not know until you sit with a financial planner and understand the pathway forward. And when you see that being built out to retirement and beyond, you start to realize the relevance of that importance.

Marty · 25:18So I can't stipulate more that, uh, the earlier you get the advice, it's all awareness, the more, you know, the more you can do and with good professionals around you, obviously like Jace, Luke Mace, as we talked about before, and on the funding side, uh, we've got a team of experts that's just ready to support people.

Marty · 25:37So yeah, take it up. Why not? The only

Nick · 25:39thing I would. Um, I would add to that, you know, I'm thinking about the current environment, but we're seeing a lot of landlords sell properties, um, for cashflow reasons. And, you know, in a lot of circumstances, uh, that is the right move for them. Um, but what I would encourage people to do is if you, if you are selling because you're

Nick · 26:00close to retirement, please get some, some advice either from a financial planner or someone like yourself, Chase.

Nick · 26:06And just understand the implications of selling, uh, making sure you're doing the right thing with the excess funds. You can save yourself a lot of capital gain, capital gains through things like super contributions. Um, and then, you know, how do you get that money into super if it's for your, for your retirement?

Nick · 26:24Cause that is the best place for it from a tax point of view. So I think, yeah, just based on what's happening at the moment and a lot of landlords selling, and the reality is they've made a lot of money because they've, you know, they've bought quite some time ago in a, in a booming market. Um, but it's imperative that you understand, uh, what to watch out for if you are selling and you're going to experience a capital gain, so.

Nick · 26:47Pick the phone up. Um, if it's not to us, even someone like yourself.

Jason · 26:50Ah, beautiful mate. Well, everyone, thank you for listening to another episode of the numbers game. It's been great to have you join us. Just a bit of a special shout out here as well. If you know there's a, you know,

Jason · 27:00a mom or dad, auntie and uncle, someone in your network who maybe is not listening to the numbers game right now, who maybe.

Jason · 27:06Pushing towards retirement age, even though we've said you can start as early as possible, you get the upside by starting earlier. If you do think of someone who probably needs a hand in this area, feel free to shoot them our way. Get them to listen to this episode. Um, and just make an introduction where we are the guys that are more than happy to help.

Jason · 27:22That's what we're here for. So until next time, thank you for listening. Like, YouTube and see our faces. But we have until next time.

Marty · 27:30It's your money. Make sure it counts. Game over.

Jason · 27:35This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The conversations are of a general nature and do not qualify as financial or tax advice.

Jason · 27:43We recommend before you make any financial decisions, you consult a licensed professional. Individuals on the podcast may hold positions in the companies discussed. ---