Tax Fraud - Why Is It So Easy?

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 160 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase and I'm joined by Nick and Marty. How are we going today, fellas? Going well, Jase.

Marty · 00:08Uh, is it too early to be disillusioned with the Essendon Football Club? Practice matches, uh, we've got Apparently recruited well, lost by 66 points. I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to write off the season too early.

Marty · 00:24But, um, anyway, I suppose it's just getting miles in the legs at this stage. Nick, Nick, how are you? Lift my spirits.

Nick · 00:31Uh, well, yeah, man, I'm good. I'm, uh, a bit rusty today. Being a Monday, I had a, um Unexpected big Saturday night. I had a, uh, friend of mine train the winner of the blue diamond. Now, Marty, you're right in the horse racing, so you'll know what that is.

Nick · 00:45But, uh, two and a half million dollar racing, uh, at Caulfield. On the weekend and um, Jamie Carr rode Hayasugi to victory. It was a classic, classic ride and a, uh, a

Nick · 01:00classic victory. So we watched that on Saturday, not expecting it to win and it did. Um, so the shackles were off after that. So, but I'm okay.

Nick · 01:08Rested up Sunday and, um, back into, back into reality today. And I've watched, I've re watched the race about 10

Marty · 01:14times. So you've watched that over the Essendon pre season game? It's a good choice, mate.

Jason · 01:21Yeah, great choice. I, uh, Marty, I was silly enough to have the game on the screen in the office the other last week and yeah, look, if anything, just think of it the other way around.

Jason · 01:31We, we were okay in preseason the year before and then we sucked at the back end of the season. So maybe, I don't know, maybe it's a good sign. I don't know. But, uh. Oh, guys, anyway, it's, uh, nice, nice to be in the room with you guys. Good to be talking again. We've got a great app coming up on look, we had undecided what to talk.

Jason · 01:48This is, you know, I think we're talking, you know, do we need to pay tax? Maybe we don't, you know, or tax fraud is easy. We've got all sorts of different names coming up for this app. But, uh, stick around. It's going to be a banger. Nick Riley is going to be

Jason · 02:00unpacking whether we need to pay tax on it, I think.

Jason · 02:01So, uh, mate, we might just throw straight to you. What have you got for us today?

Nick · 02:05Well, there was an article in the AFR this morning that, um, caught my attention. And I thought, geez, I wonder, number one, I wonder how this stuff happens. And hopefully you're going to tell us how it happens today. And then I thought number two.

Nick · 02:20How do people get away with it for so long? So the article was, um, suspected 180 million tax fraud, uh, is being investigated by the ATO at the moment. Now, the investigations are as, you know, it do come to light, then it's, it's the biggest tax fraud, uh, in Australia's history, the previous one being 135 million, which we can unpack as well.

Nick · 02:44That was very clever. Far more clever than this one, I think. Um, but the investigation is on a large formwork contractor called Dharma Form Specialists, um, controlled by a guy apparently

Nick · 03:00named Igor Sykes. And from what I can understand, uh, there's been 30 companies that were controlled by Igor Sykes over the past 15 years, and the fraud is around unpaid PAYG tax.

Nick · 03:14This is how I'm reading it, Jase, you might be able to help me out. Um, but from what I can see, basically they were, um, they were not paying people's PAYG tax or the employee's PAYG tax. They would sink the businesses every one to two years, start again. Um, and do it all again and just never pay people's PAYG tax.

Nick · 03:34So for our employers, uh, employees here, they obviously earn a salary. We hold back the portion that's going to be paid to the ATO and it's our responsibility to pay that tax to the ATO on their behalf. So they just weren't doing that from what I could understand. And we're sinking the businesses and starting again.

Nick · 03:52Um, competitors, competitors have said that, that the Dharma group consistently quotes 15 to 20 percent less. Um, than any of the

Nick · 04:00competitors and these guys were, uh, are on some big tier one jobs. So you're talking government jobs, um, that these guys are on. So it's just interesting that they're on big government projects, uh, quoting 15 to 20 percent less because they're not paying the PAYG tax so they can afford to.

Nick · 04:17Uh, and then they, then they fraud the government by not, by not paying tax and sinking companies. Um, a lot of these companies are suspected to have Phoenix directors. Um, one director being Indian based and when he was contacted had very little to know of on the business or what was happening inside of it.

Nick · 04:37Um, so yeah, my question Jase, how, how do they get away with it? I wouldn't mind unpacking the logistics. How do they actually do it and how does the ATO, uh, let it go unnoticed? Like, I'm just thinking about our business now in the current environment. And obviously the ATO, uh, has been in significant deficit, so they're chasing money at the

Nick · 05:00moment.

Nick · 05:00But you can't have a Bass Statement go unpaid for a couple of days and they're all over you now. How have these guys consistently run up tax bills, um, and we're talking one to two years, and then they're sinking the company, so they're getting away with not paying it for one to two years, they're then sinking the company and then doing it again, and at the same time, they're winning government projects.

Nick · 05:24So I'm hoping you can just shed some light on how this might

Jason · 05:29be even possible. Yeah, look, definitely. And unfortunately, not, I don't want to say it's almost too easy, but with the right people involved that have the right way of doing things, you can kind of make this stuff happen and it's, it's, it's scary what is possible.

Jason · 05:43And, um, so to start by unpacking what I could imagine have happened with this example. They've got a main business, which is the main contractor. That's the one that's engaging in the contracts. I call that the, the Delma form work business. Then what would happen is all of these other companies would be

Jason · 06:00almost like a labor hire companies where they bring the labor in.

Jason · 06:02So they wouldn't actually use the, the main entity to get into any trouble because it needs to win its government contracts. It needs to look to be doing the right thing. And it would pay a fee to another company where you might have these, you know, proxy directors that they can sink and make disappear in when things go pear shaped.

Jason · 06:20So you'd run the wages through a separate company with a separate director and that company would just be there to money in to pay the wages but not enough to then pay the pay as you go withholding. So then how that would work, for example, somebody on a 180, 000 salary The net that goes in their pocket is 120.

Jason · 06:38So there's 60, 000 of payees you go withholding that's meant to go to the ATO. So if you imagine doing that for a hundred employees over a year, there's 600, 000 that disappears that year. Do it for the second year, 1. 2 million owing to the ATO. ATO knocks on the door of that company, because it's a separate legal entity from the main one and says, Hey guys, you owe us

Jason · 07:001.

Jason · 07:002 million. They go, Oh shit, sorry, we don't have it. Look at our books. And the books will show there's not enough. Assets on the company's books to pay the 1. 2 million, ATO shuts it down. Now, where there's that one director who's never had a strike on their name before, maybe they go and check to see if the director's got any assets that are worth going after.

Jason · 07:18They would appoint a liquidator that, you know, but then they'd go, what is economical to pursue? Because if this director doesn't have any money and there's no real loans they can chase against other companies, if it's all been done. You know, effectively and above board, they just shut that company down.

Jason · 07:33They write that first 1. 2 million off. Now, obviously the size and scale of 180 million tax fraud means that this has been done at a huge scale across multiple companies for multiple years. But to give you an example, Um, let me, let me, um, defend the ATO temporarily and the government more recently, Nick, Nick, you would have had to apply for a director ID, correct?

Jason · 07:55Correct. Yep. Yep. So director ID, this is part of this phoenixing

Jason · 08:00activity where there was directors that were directors of companies, but we know, were they really verified properly? Were they ID checked properly? So director ID linked to myGov and all these, you know, um, new tech devices and things we've got to do with myGov ID and, you know.

Jason · 08:14Proving our passports and our driver's license and getting director IDs. This is all steps to go towards stopping this from happening where it's historically built up. Now all these companies that have built up debts for the last 10 plus years They were kind of had the benefit of being set up long before some of the newer things that were brought in But again to to kind of share a story of how easy it is for this stuff to slip past the ATO I've got some clients that if they don't pay a bass And there are a couple of days, I bang ATO text messages, emails, phone call rings.

Jason · 08:47But then I've got other clients that might be hundreds of thousands of dollars in arrears. And then also some non clients that I deal with through other parties, there'll be hundreds of thousands or millions in arrears, no phone call,

Jason · 09:00no text, no follow up for a long time. So it's like the system just doesn't pick everyone up or the resources are under resourced.

Jason · 09:08And to share one last story before I throw back to you, I, where Greg and I worked many years ago at a local accounting firm out in Beaconsfield. I had a client walk in one year with 18 shopping bags. Now this is at an individual level but you can imagine if at an individual level just how this can slip.

Jason · 09:26So he came in, he sat down, he booked an appointment and he dropped 18 shopping bags onto my desk. And I said, well, what are these 18 shopping bags? He goes, that's my records for every single tax year for the last 18 years. I wasn't happy with how the government was spending the money they were collecting in my taxes.

Jason · 09:44So I just refused to lodge tax. And he goes, I was going to wait for them to contact me. But he goes, it's now been 18 years. And I haven't heard from the ATR about lodging my overdue tax returns. He goes, I thought it's probably time that I just. Do their job for them. And I'll come into you

Jason · 10:00and admit that I haven't done it and lodged my tax.

Jason · 10:02Now his records were immaculate. He kept every receipt for every year for all the deductions he wanted to claim against his income. Now he was the director of a company. He was getting mega dividends and a big wage, but his company was lodging the taxes and the wages. But him as an individual, wasn't lodging at all.

Jason · 10:19And 18 years, he didn't lodge a tax return and didn't receive one overdue letter, not one warning to lodge his tax. And I sit there as an accountant whose life kind of revolves around doing things on behalf of the ATO and the Australian governments and the tax system that we have here and think, why am I doing the right, and don't get me wrong, but it does make you go, why do we do the right thing and pay all these taxes if the government can't even.

Jason · 10:43bring in tax from people that are blatantly doing the wrong thing for such a long period of time. Um, yeah, so I'll throw back to you on that for now, but does that kind of unpack a little bit? I mean, it's, it's all the sub companies and at some stage people were going around finding homeless people and offering them money

Jason · 11:00to become a director of companies that they knew they were going to sink.

Jason · 11:03And a homeless person who, you know, thinks that make 10, 15, 20 grand or some kind of leg up to be a director of a company that's never going to blow back on me because no one's going to come after me because I've got no assets to take. And we don't have a, you know, as you said in America, uh, maybe before the show, America's, you know, if you do something from a tax forward point of view, you're in jail.

Jason · 11:25In Australia, you've got to do a lot wrong before. You know, anything blows back at you. And even from a criminal prosecution point of view, I might look it up as we start chatting, but I think it's very rare that we get a criminal prosecution for white collar crime from a tax fraud point of view. Yeah,

Nick · 11:40it's a, it's a good point.

Nick · 11:41And what's, you know, what's one way to stop people doing the wrong thing? We'll make the repercussions, uh, more severe. Right. So I guess, yeah, I, I, I understand the process and what they're doing. Um, And I, it is very frustrating when, you know, you've got someone who's defrauded

Nick · 12:00the tax, the tax, the, or the ATO 180 million, and then the ATO is trying to get money in, in every other angle, and they, you know, and they've just let someone, um, take 180 million from them, basically, I guess what I really struggle with is, This went on for 15 years.

Nick · 12:18So at what stage is the ATO or whoever's responsible for this, not looking at these companies that have got Phoenix directors that have been sunk and seeing the connections, they're seeing the connections of the mastermind. And obviously it's happened eventually, but it's happened 15 years in and 180 million.

Nick · 12:37Now, the reality is that 180 million is gone. They'll have no, it's gone. So you can, you can do what you want as far as repercussions go, but there's, there'll be no money coming back. So if you get a couple of companies in form work that go into liquidation, don't you do some kind of auditing and processing, you probably

Nick · 13:00quickly work out that, Hey, there's a linkage here.

Nick · 13:01That's I'll just baffled. And I guess it comes down to resources, but. You know, I think, I think you find the resources when these companies, uh, you know, uh, uh, dumping a million or 2 million at any given time. Um, what do you think, Marty? I can see you patiently trying to work out if you have to pay the next

Marty · 13:19tax bill.

Marty · 13:19Hasn't, haven't they already paid tax given they're giving those quotes at 20%, 30 percent less than what everyone else is? My, my little spider senses are tingly here going. Maybe, maybe they don't want to dig too deep here in regards to, cause I mean, that's, that's amazing in itself that they've. Often those quotes at that discount price, is there a cyclical benefit here that, um, you know, as to that, as to that reasoning, I, I think that's interesting in itself, I'd be, I'd be just having a look under that rock and it probably isn't the case, but I'd certainly look under that rock because usually

Marty · 14:00there's a, there's sort of a, Collateral benefit somewhere in someone doing that behavior for some reason.

Marty · 14:08So I'd be certainly digging a little bit deeper, but I think it probably just comes down to that the system's flawed and probably it's, you know, the way it looks at the data probably just didn't, didn't be able to link it. That's my, that's my first assumption. But secondly, I'm going, all right, well, what's the collaborative benefit to this being allowed to go on for so long?

Marty · 14:28And just checking in on that

Jason · 14:29too. Like historically, they've talked about some of the problems were like all of the different authorities. So between ASIC who monitored companies, then you've got ATO who's monitoring tax. Then you got the ABR, the Australian business register that was doing ABN. So you had all these different agencies that weren't necessarily cross sharing information correctly.

Jason · 14:49So then if you've got like a sophisticated tax evasion scheme and you've got ASIC registered directors over here and then companies doing their tax over there with the ATO, that's why there was these, you know,

Jason · 15:00compliance flaws and, and, you know, people flouting the, the tax laws. So, you know, the, the ATO's challenge in combating that is, you know, how do they look at all the data and go through it if they don't have the resources, the money from the government, you know, the people power?

Jason · 15:14What's changing now? And, you know, we've talked about, I talk about a lot on the show is AI, like the, the ATO and the government's AI capability is really being dialed up at the moment. You know, so for anyone who's got overdue super, it's only a matter of time before it's found out that you paid the super late or the super's overdue.

Jason · 15:33For, I'm hoping for these pay as you go withholdings and unpaid GST and all those things, it's only a matter of time before they start to find out that people aren't paying it. But there was another one, Nick, and you know, just to add to it from a size and scale. So while 180 million is a lot for one.

Jason · 15:50There was a big, did you guys hear about the tick tock GST fraud? Okay. And so back in the 2020, 2021 over, you know, you know, in amongst

Jason · 16:00all the COVID news, it probably got buried, but in Australia, there was a 4. 6 billion tax fraud. Promoted on Tik TOK that was all about getting GST fake GST refunds. So what would happen is, and there was hundreds of arrests in this one, and there was 56, 000 people that did this Tik TOK fraud.

Jason · 16:22They saw the video on Tik TOK on how to do it and other social media Tik TOK was the major one and. Effectively, without going into the full detail, it was around registering an ABN, pretending you'd started a business, and lodging a BAS, claiming GST credits, and giving a BSB an account number to get the refund into.

Jason · 16:41And the ATO systems were not obsolete, but basically so lacking in, in, you know, cause it's a self self assessment, self lodgement system. That's how the Australian tax system works. You assess it and you lodge it. And there's a bit of a trust element to it. It took, there was something like

Jason · 17:001. 9 billion.

Jason · 17:01Actually, it was something between two and 3 billion actually left the ATO's pocket and was refunded into people's pockets between 2020 and 2023 before they put an end to it. Like, so yes, 180 million is a lot, Nick, but if you do look at the example of a 2. 7 to 4. 6 billion GST tax fraud from all the little micro people that had a crack at this TikTok GST scheme, like.

Jason · 17:30It's just another step in the direction of painting the picture that we have a problem with our tax system, if it's that easy to, and you know, as business owners, as taxpayers, the three of us and all the clients we look after, I sit there and feel pretty disappointed in our system that Those kind of things and you know what I don't think anyone saw jails like, you know, I'm trying to look at the numbers on jail time.

Jason · 17:56It's slap on the wrist. It's a fine, a penalty. You ask people to pay it

Jason · 18:00back. They actually spend more money trying to chase people to pay this stuff back than what they actually get back in the end. It's, it's a joke. And I'm

Nick · 18:07just thinking on that GST one, that is so easy to do because you actually don't provide any evidence.

Nick · 18:13You lodge a BAS and you put down, this is what I spent, this is what I made. You put down I made zero and I spent this amount and you get the credit. How then, how then do they know, where do they start as to working out, well who did it based on fraud? They must have looked at who opened ABNs in a certain time period and actually went back.

Nick · 18:34That way to see if people were in, in order to ask for what expense expense receipts or

Jason · 18:40something. So, and that's the thing, right? So when you think about the people power that it takes to. Reach out to those 56, 000 individual claims for a BAS refund. And there would have been more like legitimate ones, but that's the, the 56, 000 that were actioned going, cool.

Jason · 18:59Can you please upload,

Jason · 19:00can you please email us to, you know, blah, blah at ATO, a copy of your invoice or your receipt and a bank statement showing that you paid for that so we can give you a GST refund. The ATO just does not have the resources. So, you know, where, where people want to do the wrong thing, where there's a will, there's a way.

Jason · 19:18And whether it's a super sophisticated system, I'm, um, always full of, you know, some fun tech stories. There was, have you heard of the Bank of Samoa? No. I think, I think it's public. You can Google it. Bank of Samoa accountant for anyone out there who wants a really interesting read. I'll give you the high level, uh, an accountant came up with this scheme.

Jason · 19:40So you imagine Nick, if any of your clients have asked you if they can use their self managed super fund to buy their own dream home. Mm

Nick · 19:45hmm. All the time we get asked that.

Jason · 19:47Cool. Imagine you had an accountant that was creative enough to find a way for you to buy your dream home with your super fund. So effectively, Nick, Nick and Marty, you guys understand super funds.

Jason · 19:57I'll tell you how this worked.

Jason · 20:00I got a banking license for the bank of Samoa. Nick, I want you to transfer all of your self managed super fund cash. Into the bank of Samoa, I'm going to pay you 5 percent interest on your deposit. Cool. Then Marty, I'm going to go to you. You and Nick work together or you and I work together.

Jason · 20:20Nick is now going to ask for a 500, 000 home loan from the bank of Samoa paying interest at 7%, 8%, whatever it ends up being. So the self managed super fund is making an interest income. The family gets a home loan from the bank of Samoa to buy the dream home. And what do you know? Um, family's got money, family lives in a dream home owned by a loan to the bank.

Jason · 20:43Bank happens to have also got some money from the same family self managed super fund. So this scheme was like rolled out across, you know, some big wealthy kind of groups and families, uh, by this accountant, you know, whether the families knew what they were doing or doing the

Jason · 21:00wrong thing, but it was such a sophisticated scheme.

Jason · 21:02And this guy ended up going down for. Um, insider trading and all different things, you know, getting these clients in on deals that, uh, you know, and, and this is, this is our, this is the issue with the country and I'm sure it happens in all countries, but if there's people out there that are willing to do the wrong thing and to, to break the rules and break the law, you're always going to have issues with tax fraud and GST fraud and breaking rules around super funds.

Jason · 21:25And, um, you know, I hope there's a day and age where. The system is sophisticated enough to catch all these people out because our country will be a better place. There'll be more money to go around and more projects that can be done, less issues with debt and you know, huge debt repayments for the government.

Jason · 21:43I mean, not that they necessarily spend the money well, but God, and that's just, that's just a few examples that I can share with you. You, you make

Marty · 21:50a great point though, because, and tech's the only solution moving forward, really, and AI. Because at the end of the day, the workforce to rectify the

Marty · 22:00problem will actually cost more than the tax debt or the debt bill.

Marty · 22:04And I remember this from the 90s in the bank, and it's a very simple system, but even when they were reading and matching signatures on checks, remember checks, you used to write out a check and, and you'd pass that on, you've heard of them, some of our older listeners might have heard of them, but they, the bank would only read, um, the signatures and match the signatures.

Marty · 22:24Over 20, 000 because it actually cost them a lot more to actually have a workload for everyone to read those checks than the fraud that came out of it. And the fraud was significant and in the end that's why they ended up looking to disband and checks because people would always take advantage of the situation.

Marty · 22:44And the bank was getting fleeced on it, but the cost to actually implement a workforce to be able to resolve the issue was going to be so much more significant than the cost of the fraud. And, um, and I just wonder with what you were saying there, Jase, whether it's a similar.

Marty · 23:00Situation and tech resolves that for us in some way, because I'm now sitting here pissed off at the stage three tax cuts of not as significant as what I was thinking, um, that the general public end up having to flip that, you know, pay for that bill.

Marty · 23:15And I just think that that is absolutely crazy when. You would think that more and more resources would go into this level of fraud then, you know, at, at a smaller scale level, where it should be, it should be disbanded across the board, um, given what tech can do now. So hopefully we see some massive changes around that now that we have the resources available and it's less expensive to implement.

Marty · 23:38I hope so, because that is a travesty on, um, Yeah. On what's

Jason · 23:43going on really. And to put it into a scheme of things, like if that's one example, you're 180 million Nick on top of the 2. 6 billion in GST fraud on top of the other ones. In the 22, 23 year, there was 177 prosecutions by the ATO and, and what was,

Jason · 24:00what was kind of back from that was 2.

Jason · 24:021 million in fines. So when you think of the sheer scale of that, um, And there was another 1. 7 million in reparation, reparations, how do you say it? Reparation orders and then 23 criminal convictions. So like when you, again, when you think of the size and scale of what's going on, um, you know, even. There was an accountant that got caught out doing job keeper refunds into their bank account rather than letting it go to the client.

Jason · 24:33And that accountant kept a lot of it. This is in New South Wales. Again, I think you can find a lot of this publicly available through Google searches and whatnot. But, you know, these are the, the, the tax practitioners board, the ATO, ASIC, you know. If there's accountants out there that are doing the wrong thing, there's clients out there doing the wrong thing, and there's got to be a point where somebody's made an example of and it's publicly shared all over the news, but, you know, there's too much news about Taylor Swift doing the rounds and, you

Jason · 25:00know, everything else.

Jason · 25:01Yeah, I think on, on tonight's news, there's a lady who, you know, Was going to get charged 6, 000 to reconnect her phone to get NBN. It's like, that's not news. Like, give us some real news about this, this tax fraud or all of the companies that are going into liquidation with huge debts because they never paid their GST or their pay as you go withholding.

Jason · 25:18See how

Marty · 25:18well that goes. The, uh, tax office and government will be all over the media outlets. And they're trying to fix this before this, uh, you've heard it here first listeners.

Nick · 25:29And to your early point, just lock, lock people up, get, you know. Yeah. Increase the ramifications and it will then deter people, but yeah, just get away

Jason · 25:39with murder.

Jason · 25:40As I said, they've, they've, they're doing things to try and mitigate this with director ID, agent linking now is another one. So to combat the dodgy tax agents that I was just talking about. Um, agent linking is one where now when a client, Nick, let's say you wanted to change accountants. What used to happen is I'd be able to go, cool, Nick, no worries, I'll be your accountant now for your

Jason · 26:00business.

Jason · 26:00And I'd, and I'd just jump in and punch in your tax file number and some identifying stuff. And all of your records would then pop up on my system and I'd be your accountant. Basically, I'd be self declaring, yep, I'm Nick's accountant. Now you can imagine if I wanted to do the wrong thing. And I've got enough of your details, Nick, to do that without you knowing, I can link you and let's say I process a new tax refund for you or your company, but I put in a bank account of mine that I'm hiding somewhere.

Jason · 26:26That was an issue with agent linking or not having agent linking was that any tax agent that wanted to do the wrong thing and had enough details could do that now, Nick, if I, if I'm going to become your accountant, you have to log into your, uh, myGov and, and link your business to your myGov. So you can see your business portal and you need to click agent linking, search for future advisory and select my business.

Jason · 26:50I will then get a notification on my end to say, Nick wants you to be his accountant. Do you accept? So they've kind of flipped it the other way around that the client needs to pick their

Jason · 27:00tax agent and give them access rather than the accountant or the tax agent or the Bass agent doing it themselves.

Jason · 27:06Now don't get me wrong, that's causing headaches all around Australia where tax agents are telling clients to link them and the client's going, I don't know how to do that. I don't have access to the business portal. You just do it for me. That's what my old accountant did. My old accountant did everything for me.

Jason · 27:19So now anyone who's gone to change accountants is kind of butting heads with their new people going, why are you making me do this? I didn't have to do this before. So the joys, uh, trying to make it a more secure for everyone, but, uh, I think we've got some difficult, uh, a couple of years ahead of us until the ACO fully gets on top of the backlog.

Nick · 27:39Yeah. Good insights from you. That's why I knew you'd be the perfect man to talk to about it.

Jason · 27:45That's what we're here for. But, uh, you know, if you do want to legally pay the minimum amount of taxes, we're the guys that you want to come and talk to. And, uh, if you want to make sure your business is well funded and well looked after, you got to talk to Marty and Nick at the team at Innovate.

Jason · 27:57Um, but you know, this is what we do. We love it. Uh, we're

Jason · 28:00probably full of useless facts about all these different accountants and businesses and, uh, taxes. Uh, but if you found this episode somewhat enjoyable and intriguing, please give us a follow, give us a like, we're always open to feedback and hearing from our loyal listeners.

Jason · 28:14of the numbers game. We've loved having you and until next time,

Marty · 28:18follow the numbers, even when they're smelly, they're interesting. Game over. ---