Superannuation and the First Home Dilemma

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 208 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase. I'm here with Nick and Marty. How are you going guys?

Marty · 00:06Doing well. All the better for hearing your dulcet tones, Jase. Uh, good to be back on and feeling good. Nicholas, how are you?

Nick · 00:13I'm good, Marty. Just pushing through this, uh, non air conditioned office. So if I pass out this episode, you know where to come and get me.

Nick · 00:20But it's good training for summer. It's good training for summer. So I'm, um, Just embracing it at the moment, but other than that, I'm good forward to getting some fresh air.

Jason · 00:29We, uh, we should have swapped, uh, rooms, Nick. I've just, you know, obviously not long ago I was in Nashville and it was 30 to 35 degrees every day.

Jason · 00:36And having only done a quick one week in, you know, Sunday to Sunday, I think it was like six degrees in Melbourne when I left and I landed in LA. It was 30, then got to Nashville and it was 35. And so you get the, I'll tell you what, when you just go from one. It hits you hard. That's for sure. Cowboy hats.

Marty · 00:55Still the thing out there.

Jason · 00:56Cowboy hats and, uh, the boots. There's, there's a boot shop.

Jason · 01:00Every five stores was a Nashville boot company and, you know, buy one boot, get two boots free. There's all sorts of deals going on. Yeah. Awesome.

Nick · 01:08You have to buy boots when you go over there, isn't that?

Jason · 01:11I was plenty of visits into the boot shop with the, uh, team, the zero, um, ladies that I was there with.

Jason · 01:16Um, and they boots galore. It was, um, I reckon if you're going to start a business in Nashville, even though there's a boot shop every five, like I reckon there's still a game for it. So, but anyway, I could talk about that. Uh, All day boot company. No, uh, Nick, you have come to us today and we're going to be talking about buying a house with super.

Jason · 01:36So, you know, if you, if you're, if you're playing along at home and you're like, well, shit, you know, I've always wanted to buy a house and I've got a bunch of super. Nick's got the goods. What's happening, Nick?

Nick · 01:45Well, yeah, I've got the goods. Um, I've got a topic to discuss. Um, what's a good one is, um, for people to decide, but there's, there's a push from the coalition at the moment into, uh,

Nick · 02:00allowing people to access their superannuation.

Nick · 02:04Uh, for a deposit on a house on your first home. Now, to be clear, there's, there's, there's already ways you can do this. So as an investor, you can roll your, um, superannuation into a self managed super fund and you can buy an investment property. Um, there's also the, the super saving scheme where you can put money into super with the legitimate reason, um, To be going towards a property and it's just a way to reduce your tax, but then you can pull that money out.

Nick · 02:32This is very different. Um, they've been singing this hymn for quite some time and they're, what they're suggesting is there's, there's so much money in superannuation. Um, And people are really struggling to get into the property market because of mainly because of capital, not so much repayments, it's having the deposit.

Nick · 02:54So why wouldn't you let Australians access their superannuation if they have enough,

Nick · 03:00um, to realize the great Australian dream, which is owning a house. Um, so there's a Senate going into the, uh, inquiry going to this and I guess it's a bit of a, well, it's, it's political at the end of the day. So it's a, it's a way that they're trying to get votes, um, to get elected.

Nick · 03:16Of course, if you're talking to people about buying their first home and you make it easier for them, of course, you're probably going to get votes from a certain particular, um, or a particular, um, sector of the market. So. I thought it'd be an interesting conversation, um, do I agree with it? I, I don't agree with it and there's some reasons I do which we'll unpack but there's also, I can also understand the four arguments as well.

Nick · 03:42So keen to, um, put it on the table, see what you guys think about first homeowners being able to get access to their superannuation to help them fund a deposit for their first home.

Marty · 03:55Just first homeowners?

Nick · 03:57From what I understand, yes, otherwise, um,

Nick · 04:00would defeat the purpose, yeah. So it's all about getting young people into property.

Nick · 04:04So yeah, I'd suggest it's just first time owners. Let's just go with that for the sake of, um, this discussion.

Marty · 04:10Yeah. I was just, I was just wondering what it would do to house prices off the back if, uh, people all of a sudden had this access, um, it would certainly fuel the market at all, all different levels.

Marty · 04:21So. Yeah, interesting. I mean, it's interesting. We do want to get people into homes sooner without, uh, having to sort of put up their mum and dad's house as well, which is happening a lot and is a legitimate way to go about, um, getting funding for your first home. That happens a lot. We see a lot of it, but I'm just interested that, uh, what the ramifications are of that.

Marty · 04:46Uh, what, how do you think about it, Nick? Do you think about it? It's going to impact their, their future in regards to the investment or, cause again, if they're in a property and as long as they hold that property, there's no

Marty · 05:00capital gains on their home, but how many people hold that property without making jumps here, there, and everywhere as well.

Marty · 05:07Yeah.

Nick · 05:08Yeah. Look, it's a. Yeah, it's that's, uh, that's obviously for an argument against, and, uh, I think having there's, it's such a gray area, right? Because I was on this podcast not long ago, um, talking about your home fueling a big, a big part of your retirement strategy. And that's, that's just a fact.

Nick · 05:30There's no doubt about that. Um, I think what we need to understand though, is. When I was talking about that, I was referring to the current environment and I was referring particularly to baby boomers. And what's happened with baby boomers is, you know, they've bought properties at exorbitantly low prices and they're now sitting on properties that are maybe worth two million bucks.

Nick · 05:53Right, with, with no debt attached because the, the, the way was to repay debt and get a house of no,

Nick · 06:00with no loan against it. I don't have a crystal ball, but I would be very surprised if we, we get the kind of growth again in this country or anywhere that we've had in the past 50 years in property. It's been absolutely astronomical.

Nick · 06:17The other thing is, too Marty, is we don't have the same mindset, not just mindset, but even ability to repay debt like the baby boomers did. You know, so if you're, and this is pretty common, if you're in your mid thirties or even 40 and you're just getting into the property market, you're taking on a 30 year loan term.

Nick · 06:35So you're not paying that off until you're 70 years old. Now I would argue without knowing the stats, but I would argue that most baby boomers owned their house outright by the age of 50. So they then had the ability to start to contribute extra to Super and we see this because they're our clients, we see this every day.

Nick · 06:52So, I think, suggesting that, okay, you buy your first home and that's then going to become part of your

Nick · 07:00retirement plan now, you can't guarantee that and when most people buy their home, Their first time is going to be a townhouse. It's going to be a property that's not going to be big enough. They're going to buy again, buy again, buy again.

Nick · 07:10So knowing what I know around superannuation and how it's going to be absolutely pivotal to funding people's retirements. This, this current generation, uh, this current generation that is working, I really don't like the idea of tapping your super to buy your own occupied home. Um, and to your first point, there's absolutely no doubt about it, but if you give a whole group of people access to the exact same amount of money to pour into a particular market at one time or at the same time, what's going to happen?

Marty · 07:48Yeah. What's going to happen? It's going to

Nick · 07:49go nuts. You know, it's going to go nuts. There's absolutely no doubt about it. And then it's only going to be a problem for the next generation. And this, this, this problem keeps existing. So and getting

Nick · 08:00bigger. So I don't know what the answer is. I just want to have a talk about it, but I don't think the answer is letting people tap their super.

Nick · 08:06But then the argument is, and I'll, I'll just say this and I'll hand it over to you guys. The argument is that what we are doing is we are allowing investors to tap their super to buy root, to buy investment properties. So on one. In one situation you're saying we shouldn't do it, but we actually already let people do it.

Nick · 08:27And these are the people that probably need to do it the least because they've already got a house and they're buying an investment property. So if you want to create a level playing field, do you think about the fact that Most first homeowners are buying for about a million bucks or under, give or take.

Nick · 08:43And if we're looking at Victoria, that's also the price point where most investors are looking at getting into. So at the moment, you've got a first homeowner going to an auction. They're up against an investor and they can access their super fund. They're at the same price point. They don't need to worry about saving for the deposit because they can pull out of their super.

Nick · 09:00The serviceability is different inside a super fund is actually a lot easier. So they've probably got more. Borrowing capacity. So then it's an unfair market when you've got an investor that can tap their super versus any first time owner that can't. So my opinion is, I think the, if you want to have a real fair market, you get rid of being able to buy properties in your SMSF as an investor, and then you also can't do it as a first homeowner, then it's fair.

Nick · 09:26So it's just, it's, it's really interesting. I just don't think it's been thought through enough to say, Oh, people can tap their super. Um, knowing what I know and it's superannuation is going to contribute to most people's retirement. I just, I just don't like it. And I think there's a, there's got to be a better alternative.

Nick · 09:46Um,

Jason · 09:46yeah, you might be able to clarify these numbers for you, Nick, but I'm pretty sure between the age of 25 and 30, it was something along the lines every 10, 000 in super. It's worth about a hundred grand when you're a tire. Yeah.

Jason · 10:00Yep. Yep. So if I'm, if I'm 25 and I've managed to screw a 50 grand away into my super fund, that's going to be worth say 500 grand pushing retirement age.

Jason · 10:12Would I get the same uplift in a property for that same 50 grand, you know, holding it over, you know, that, that 40 year journey now, realistically, if it was saying property doubles every 10 years, you got 50 to a hundred, you know, A hundred to 200, 200 to 400, and then maybe, you know,

Nick · 10:30again that, and that relies on a lot to go right.

Nick · 10:32You, you're missing a really important point here to, for you to then utilize that as part of your retirement. You have to crystallize it and that this is the issue. So you're gonna retire at the age of 65. Okay? I've got a house that's worth 1.5 million, 2 million. That's not gonna do anything for your retirement unless you sell it.

Nick · 10:53Yes, it can go up at the same rate as super. That's great. But at the end of the day, you're forced to have to sell it to crystallize that

Nick · 11:00money. And again, I'll go back to a few episodes ago where I was talking about the baby boomer population with six or 700 square meters in Box Hill. That that's not the case anymore.

Nick · 11:09Like, if you're looking at first homeowners getting into townhouses or getting into 300 square meter house and land packages. So they're kind of already downsized. So it's, it's, you know, so yeah, I see your point. The property may return similar amounts or whatnot, but you have to sell it to realize those amounts and fund your retirement and you know, that there's a flaw in that strategy.

Nick · 11:33If that's the case.

Jason · 11:34And as much as I was unpacking it, just like live on the spot, I, my initial gut feel was, I don't like the idea of, you know, being able to pull the 50 grand out and then be missing 500 grand of cash at retirement or the ability to access that cash. Um, I think it almost promotes, uh, a laziness or a quick, easy win in a sense that that money has been forced to be saved.

Jason · 11:56And you're going to get access to it. And then I guess, how do you then protect

Jason · 12:00that and say, well, what if they sell the house a few, you know, a few months later, they can't afford the repayments, something goes wrong, they sell it. Do they then get to keep that 50 grand cash? Does it all get lost on stamp duty when they sell it?

Jason · 12:11Like, you know, there's, there's, there's. There's too many what ifs and things that can go wrong as opposed to the strict, stringent running of a, of a super fund where there is set rules and set things that have to happen and you can't touch it. That's the beauty of what the super fund environment does is it's screwed away for a long time for the purpose of your retirement.

Jason · 12:32I think once that money's out, there's too many things that can happen. And, and I only look at what happened during COVID where people got to eject 10 grand and then eject 10 grand again. And those young Aussies that thought, shit, yeah, I'm going to get access to my super and took that 20 grand out whether they needed it or didn't really need it.

Jason · 12:46They're now 200 grand worse off at retirement or more.

Nick · 12:51This is, this is how stupid it is, right? Just, just to, to peel it all back. And this is why I think buying a property with a new super fund is also

Nick · 13:00stupid. And any, anyone. Anyone that sits there and says, you should be able to buy a property in your super fund because it gives you control of your super.

Nick · 13:09And, you know, I've got a super fund and it's not going anywhere and, you know, there's all these fees and I'm not controlling the returns. You're just in the wrong fund. That's the reality. You can get control of your super in most funds and most of them if you're a young person you should be getting 8 10 percent a year with very minimal fees.

Nick · 13:27Trust me, I've been in this game for a long time. Super does what it's meant to. It continuously goes up and it funds people for a long time. That's a fact, unless you're in the wrong fund. So you can get performance out of most super funds. So the argument that I want to control my super, I don't, I don't cop that because you can still control it with the normal funds that are available.

Nick · 13:49You just got to do, you know, you just got to educate yourself. The, this is how silly it sounds letting people buy, buy super funds. Um, property in their super. We've got this issue

Nick · 14:00around affordability in this country. At the moment, no one can afford property. Now if you look at where Super's gone to, we're all business owners.

Nick · 14:07So we know this. It's gone from 9% that the employer's gotta pay to 12%. So they've got these initiations or these, these initiatives, sorry, in place to continue to put more and more money into super. They now wanna let people pull that money out. And pump it into a market that's already out of control.

Nick · 14:26It just makes absolutely no sense when you talk about it in that way. Okay. We've got this big affordability problem, so let's make sure we give more people, uh, people more super to fund their retirement, but let's also let them pull it out and put it into this market. That's already a problem for us. So that's already inflated or unaffordable,

Jason · 14:45low, low supply, high demand.

Jason · 14:47Yeah. Let's, let's, let's throw money into that. Does that make sense? As opposed to how do we solve the supply issue? How do we create more supply, so there is more homes that are affordable, so that more people can buy a home without accessing their

Jason · 15:00super? Doesn't that, that sounds weird. That sounds like, you know, a bit of a common sense approach.

Jason · 15:04Is that just not how politicians work, I assume, Nick?

Nick · 15:08I don't know. Marty's a, Marty's a political man, so

Marty · 15:11I don't, he's all over it. Well, that I don't like any of them. But, uh, but it's, uh. I think the biggest vulnerability to the whole structure and the brilliance of super is you really, technically apart from COVID, you can't get at it.

Marty · 15:26Um, that's, you know, I love that. And you make, you've actually shifted my perspective on it a little bit because I've always thought the leverage point of having a property in super. You know, could, could get you a better return in the end. And obviously no capital gains once it's in pension phase, I go that, uh, you probably leverage from where you would otherwise not get to, but, um, then to pull out 50 grand out of super for the home, the first home, You'd nearly need that sort

Marty · 16:00of Categorize that you can't almost sell which is ridiculous sell that property until you're 65 as well So it's some sort of equal playing field that someone doesn't just uh destroy their future um Or you don't do it at all You just leave super as it is and focus on your property investments outside of I

Nick · 16:22think, yeah, I don't mind your theory there.

Nick · 16:25How do you control it? But then it's so difficult with property. And I get your point around leverage for sure. You know, if you leverage and you buy the right asset, then by all means, you should probably get more of a return, but we need to remember why superannuation was. Uh, created and what it's evolved into, which was not why it was created in most cases.

Nick · 16:48So superannuation was created to provide us a comfortable retirement. What it's gone, what it's transformed into for a lot of people is a tax effective wealth creation vehicle. And that

Nick · 17:00is for a lot of people. How they think about Super now. That is not why it was there. It was there for mom and dads to get you know, 600, 700 K between them and Super and a house with no debt, and then they can retire.

Nick · 17:12That is, that is, that is a fact because we do that kind of advice every day. It was not there for people to build a property portfolio. Within it because it was 15 percent tax. So I get what you're saying and I actually agree with you that leverage, you can go forward quicker. But at the same time, it wasn't about getting as much in there as possible.

Nick · 17:32It was about making sure you had enough to live. Um, when the time came to stop, to stop working.

Marty · 17:39So when you have like, there'd be, yeah, potentially first home buyers listening and going, Oh, funny. I could get another 50 to get in. Right? Um, how do you think that, Do you feel like Super works best as it was first designed for, is what you're saying?

Marty · 17:56And is that, is that kind of where you'd like it to

Marty · 18:00be? Like in your own mind from what you've seen, Nick, over, over the journey?

Nick · 18:04For sure. Like, it's, it's, it's a, and Jase will be better at answering this than I am, to be honest. But, when, when you say it worked really well, And we're seeing it now because of the baby boomer population and them, um, being beneficiaries of super contributions.

Nick · 18:21Um, and then I see what's going to happen with Millennials and Gen Zs and, you know, they're getting super contributions from day one of being in the workforce. So, I see it work really well for the baby boomers that have, haven't done anything. Outside of going to work, worked hard, had their employer put super contributions in, left it, reinvested it, been with a good fund, reasonable fees, it does its job.

Nick · 18:47What it's evolved into, which I don't really agree with, is a tax. Is it not a tax evasion? That's, that's, that's the wrong, the wrong word. Because at the end of the day, if you can pay less tax, you should definitely pay less tax.

Nick · 19:00So I don't blame people for, I do it myself. I try and minimize tax by putting money into super, but that's never what it was for.

Nick · 19:06It was, it, the, the reduced tax was to number one, um, get people to put more in. and make sure that it was a decent balance by the time they, they reach retirement. But, you know, as well as I do, anyone that's, you know, got means outside of super will use or utilize super as much as they can to reduce tax, which I actually understand.

Nick · 19:28So I don't think it, That's what it should be. I think it's, it's there for a reason. It's there to make sure that you've got money when you retire. It's there to reduce your reliance on a government pension. That's where it should, should land. And look, the government's done things to move towards, um, that becoming a thing, you know, based on having caps at the 1.

Nick · 19:496 million or whatever it is now. So, um, Yeah, I think it's there to fund a retirement, it's not there so you can make sure you actually minimize your tax. At the end of

Nick · 20:00the day, go back to your original, I don't know, one of our original episodes, bring the tax, get the tax rate right across the board and you won't have people needing to do that, right?

Nick · 20:10Um, I think the question we need to solve is how do we get people into property with less capital reliance? Because the reality is, you know, I think most banks and government are really, um, confident on property values and what our property is going to do, um, in the next 10, 15, 50 years, as in property in Australia.

Nick · 20:35How do we reduce the costs to get people in? Now, I know there's no stamp duty, but you still need, even with no stamp duty, with most prices, uh, purchases, you still need 50 grand. It's, it's, it's very difficult for people in this day and age. To save 50, 000, it takes them so long. They can fund the repayments, it's the capital that's the issue.

Nick · 20:56Find a way, and I know there's, they're trying to find ways through

Nick · 21:00government schemes and stuff, but they're pretty convoluted and pretty difficult. I think find a simple way to let people borrow 100 percent of the property value. That's, that's what I think. Get, get the banks comfortable with that. Um, Do more of that instead of having that as a, as an allocation like the government does now.

Nick · 21:16Oh, we can only do so many a year or whatever it might be. You're probably more across those schemes than I am Marty. But if you don't let, if like, if you're so confident that you're going to let people put money into their super money into property, find a way to let everyone borrow 100 percent of the value.

Nick · 21:32And then start paying it off.

Jason · 21:33That's, that's actually a great, great way to think of it, Nick, you know, and I'm not, let's just say this is a good idea, but you know, even considering if you've got 50 grand in super, can that become part of a guarantee, you know, so you get an extra 50 grand that becomes the deposit.

Jason · 21:48So the event something goes pear shaped, you've got 50 grand in super that is earning. compounding, more interest, more income, more dividends, but the government's going, you know what? You've got it there. So we're going to let you have the extra 50

Jason · 22:00in the event that something goes wrong with that property or you stop repaying it.

Jason · 22:03The bank that lent you the money knows there's an extra 50 grand to grab worst case scenario. Not saying it's a good idea, but just exiting it out of the super environment. Not good.

Marty · 22:12Yeah. I like the idea of, I mean, people will jump to the idea of, you know, potential negative equity if you borrow a hundred percent.

Marty · 22:20Right. However. You know, the runs are on the board and if you're, you know, the stamp duty costs enough. So if your deposit goes towards the stamp duty, the government, I feel, still make all this, you know, state, federal, but they still get their win in the, you know, in the, Property's changing heads.

Nick · 22:40I'll ask you as someone who's been in the home loan business for a long time.

Nick · 22:43Yeah. Let's say you put parameters around properties, postcodes, type of property. You know, you can't buy in a mining town. You can't buy an apartment on the. 60th floor. Um, how many people that bought a block of dirt

Nick · 23:00in Metro Melbourne or a suburban suburb have ever experienced negative cash, uh, negative equity when they've come to sell outside of not paying their repayment for a time period in their interest is capitalized.

Nick · 23:12Have you ever seen it?

Marty · 23:13Very rare. I like, and if it is, it's 0. 05%. You know, it's like, it's. It's always grown. So it's yeah. So, and I think the, you can put some parameters around, um, servicing that debt, like strength of incomes around servicing up to a hundred percent. So you can protect, you know, you can protect the credit in different ways, but I think it'd be smart to.

Marty · 23:37for banks to get on board that and that, that is a much more level playing field, um, than what's out there at the moment because, you know, first time buyers have to get that significant deposit. And look, I think, I think that should be, I mean, I'm just putting it out there, but I, I go, I think that should be the norm.

Marty · 23:56Uh, I actually think if the credit is strong enough and

Marty · 24:00people have good asset base, you know, in total, then, you know, help first home buyers. But yeah, I just feel like we're, I don't know, it's, it's making it harder and harder to find deposits for people. Like you're buying Jace at the moment. Like you go, you know, you'd take that on board, wouldn't you?

Marty · 24:19If you had a hundred percent loan, you'd, you'd have a crack at that.

Jason · 24:23Yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. Freeze up cash to other things. So.

Marty · 24:27Yeah. And as business owners, you'd do it because you'd put funds towards your business to re, you know, to reinvest into your business rather than putting it to, you know, putting it to the home as such, but then also as first home buyers as well, it gets them in a relevant market, a fair market.

Marty · 24:44And, um, I feel like, yeah.

Jason · 24:48Well, it means you also don't have to clean yourself out as well. So, you know, you, you, all these young Australians, just people trying to buy a property in the first place. You save up. 80, 90, 100, 000,

Jason · 25:00whatever you've saved up. And then all of it goes on a deposit and stamp duty and you're left with bugger all in the bank.

Jason · 25:05No backup for a medical emergency. No, you know, yeah, it

Marty · 25:08puts

Jason · 25:08more stress, you know, and why do we want to get to that position where people are left with an empty bank account? Um, you know, and then an asset that does cost money to service and you've got to pay all the bills and everything else on top.

Jason · 25:21Yeah. Having that cash buffer is important.

Nick · 25:24Yeah. But you know, it's all good and well, we're sitting here talking about cash buffers and savings, but the example you just gave of 80, 000, right, what, what young family is saving 80 grand? Let's, let's say maximum, right, they save 20, that's really good going for a lot of people.

Nick · 25:43So to get to 80, 000, that's taken them four years. Now if their price point is a million bucks, probably goes up by 5 percent each year. So hypothetically, waiting four years is going to cost them another 200, 000. Give or take. So you see

Nick · 26:00this, the disparity and, and, and, and, and that's what's happening. So, yeah, there, there could also be an argument for, okay, well, if you give a hundred percent finance, then you're going to have the same issue around price points are going to shoot up.

Nick · 26:11Won't, it won't, it won't shoot up to the same degree because people still have to make the repayments on that. So serviceability is going to challenge it and they won't see it as free money. They will see super as free money. That's how people will see it because they won't at that age, they don't have the care for their super, um, to the degree they do when they get to their, you know, mid, mid forties or fifties.

Nick · 26:33So the reality is that if you, if you're relying on people to save 80 grand, it's just not going to happen. It's just too hard, particularly in, you know, what we're experiencing today with cost of living.

Marty · 26:44And look, there'll be people out there, listeners out there that, uh, you know, will argue the point going, what are people doing trying to buy for a million bucks?

Marty · 26:52Yeah. Why don't they go somewhere and spend three, 400? We, I don't know where you find them anymore, but you know, but they'll come out and say there's

Marty · 27:00price point people should be looking at. That's lower and just suck it up. But I've gone, the reality is it's, it's not that easy to find those types of properties unless you're out in Weird areas and you know, trying to trying to get into the market somehow and people want to be around families They want to be around their work There's a lot of things to consider and that's just where property's at but I like the idea of the hundred percent Because clients still need to be credit worthy to get that so you can protect the credit on that And you've got two asset streams running nicely.

Marty · 27:33So again if we're looking at You know, 15 years time. And there's been, you know, let's say it's 4 percent growth, Nick, instead of six or seven, what property is usually done. You're still going to be better off with no capital gains on your property at the end of the day. And you get your super running, you know, and humming along nicely compounding year on year on year on year.

Marty · 27:54And to the point where you can then. You have really strong choices of maybe putting

Marty · 28:00extra super in after you've started a family and you know, you've got some surplus income, you, you, you've got plenty of choice. You might want to pay the home loan off more aggressively. You know, there's the, you, it puts choice back in your hand as a consumer, which is interesting.

Nick · 28:15Versus the schemes at the moment where the government gives you the money and owns a percentage of your uplift. Oh, I do not like that at all. I don't like that at all. Anyway. That's my little rant for today, but, um, so what are we a thumbs down?

Jason · 28:31I think we're all thumbs down at the moment, but I was going to throw it, uh, well, I was going to quickly also just tell our audience, if you are, you know, if you've listened to the numbers game for a while, you know, that the people who can help you get into property are the great people of innovate.

Jason · 28:43So check out Innovate, um, go to the website, register for their ongoing education around getting into property, especially if you are a first home buyer. Um, there's no better resource than what the Innovate team do through their website. So get around it. Um, and yeah, I think it's all thumbs down for us, but we'd love to hear your

Jason · 29:00opinion too, if you're listening and just think, well, We've, we've missed the mark on our opinion.

Jason · 29:03Send in your perspective, get to Instagram, comment on Marty's, uh, videos. He replies to all of them. Um, just make sure that, um, yeah, say

Marty · 29:12that.

Jason · 29:12And if you do know an MP in coalition, send him a link to this episode. Uh, personally say, guys, you need to listen to this. Um, spread the good word. Um, you know, Nick, Marty and I, we do this 'cause we care and we wanna make Australia a better place for, for all of us in it.

Jason · 29:26So, um, you know, again. As well, like, subscribe, send this episode to a friend or family member too because uh, yeah, we love what we do here. But until next time,

Marty · 29:35there's always a better way to do things and I think Nick might just have stumbled on one today. Game? I don't know.

Jason · 29:42This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only.

Jason · 29:46The conversations are of a general nature and do not qualify as financial or tax advice. We recommend before you make any financial decisions, you consult a licensed professional. Individuals on the podcast may hold positions in the companies discussed. ---