Is Home Ownership Becoming a Fantasy in Australia?

Jason · 00:00Welcome to Episode 218 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase. I'm joined by Nick and Marty. And today, we are talking about why Australia's property market is now the most expensive in the world and what you can do about it. Now, Marty, I'd love to take credit for the episode content today. It's a new year. We're fired up, but this was your idea, mate.

Jason · 00:19So talk to us. What's happening?

Marty · 00:21Well, as you know, Jase, getting old, 53 this year and I was reflecting back to 2000, to year 2000, I was thinking, Geez, how much simpler and easy it was to get into property and how times have changed and how we have to really be thinking about different sort of resources in this day and age to what it was back then.

Marty · 00:42And just to give the audience an indication, like back in 2000, you could buy a property in the middle belt of Melbourne, say like another wadding or a Mitchum, somewhere around the one 70 to 200 range, and you'd have a mortgage. pretty much around 180 grand right to

Marty · 01:00get in so the gross income average around that time is around about 45, 000 but just to give you a breakdown of some basic numbers.

Marty · 01:09You're probably pulling in around 3, 344 a month and your mortgage is around about 1, 022 a month on 180 grand mortgage now You had about 30 percent of your income going towards the mortgage. Cost of living was very different. So cost of living is probably a thousand bucks. You could raise, you know, two kids and do it quite well.

Marty · 01:35You'd still have 30 percent of savings left to enjoy life and do other things. So. Kind of like the system supported the system, you know, you get a good job, you can play the game really well. And, um, you know, pretty nice when you hear those numbers back then, right? Nick, what do you think? That, uh, long time ago back in, uh, the ancient days, but Well,

Nick · 01:57first thing I think is it's not that long ago.

Nick · 01:59You know, I'm

Nick · 02:0042. Um, I feel like the gap between us is getting bigger. Um, it's in looks maybe, but But yeah, no, it doesn't feel that long ago, Marty. That's the thing. Like, you know, two thousands was when I was finishing uni and coming into the workforce. Um, so it's not like we're talking, you know, a hundred years ago, like we're talking, you know, pretty much in line from when we started our business a few years prior to that.

Nick · 02:28So first thing I think about is, wow, that's not that long ago. And how quickly, uh, has it done more, how quickly has it grown in such a short Time period

Marty · 02:36and the thing I the thing I worry about is I think back to 2000 you go You could have a one income home on 45 grand, you know, carry a mortgage, carry a good lifestyle.

Marty · 02:49You could have one parent looking after the kids. Life's pretty good, right? You know, you could, you could map out, you could map out your family life and the future from that point. I

Marty · 03:00fast forward now to 2025, just to give you some equivalent numbers there, where the average wage now is 87, 000. And I get like, you know, there's people at various levels, some more and some obviously less as well, but that's 5, 698 net per month that you pull on that.

Marty · 03:18But if you had a mortgage of at least, let's say 750 at 6. 2%, that's 4, 618 per month. Now that's one person's wage, let's say. That's 81 percent that's allocated to the mortgage. So you really have to have two people working in this day and age to get into the market. And I think how uniquely different that was to back then.

Marty · 03:46And you need to think about different strategies around that. So the cost of living though, is also three to four times higher than it was in 2000. And that's probably being very conservative, right? So where it was 1000

Marty · 04:00bucks, you get by a month. Now you'd have to have at least, you know, somewhere between three to five and depending on your lifestyle, but, um, very, very interesting.

Marty · 04:09And I was thinking to myself, what would be the equivalent? That I would need to earn in this day and age to have that same level of comfort. So what would you think that would be? Uh, Jase, take it, take a guess as to what you'd have to earn to get that same level of comfort as you did in 2000. Just,

Jason · 04:27just mathing it out.

Jason · 04:27Skywards of 200, 000 for sure.

Marty · 04:31Yeah, right on point. It's the equivalent of 250 grand gross earning 13, 500 net, which is still 34 percent of your mortgage repayment at that level if you were borrowing 750. So, and like I said before, you have to take into account not everyone's earning the average wage, but it gives you some indication of how things have changed in regards to our society and how we go about things and more

Marty · 05:00people in the workforce as well.

Marty · 05:01So here's me thinking, like, we must be expensive in Australia and I thought I'll go and do some research in regards to, all right, well, where, where do we sit here? And I just did some research on Australia. The, the top capital cities around the world and seeing who the most expensive were in the world compared to medium incomes and Hong Kong is the most expensive 16.

Marty · 05:257 times medium income. So that's pretty, uh, that's pretty expensive. Sydney is second at 13. 8 times income. Brisbane has now jumped into six at 9. 9 times. Melbourne at seventh at 9. 8 times, you know, which is like greater London, which is around 8. 1 times of income to property prices, which is quite incredible.

Marty · 05:47Adelaide now ninth. This is around the world, right guys, at 9. 7 times and Perth is 14th at 6. 8 times. And just to give you some reference, Pittsburgh in the US, 3.

Marty · 06:001 times earnings to property value. That's the best. And then you've got people in the middle like Leeds in the UK at four times, Dublin and Austin, Texas at around about 4.

Marty · 06:118 times. So quite incredible, the difference around the world and how. We're sort of those, you know, top 15 capital cities and we've only got five cities as well. It's not like we can, you know, we can go travel somewhere and have 52 cities to find a cheaper area. It's, um, the main five cities certainly take up most of the population.

Marty · 06:32So, uh, any, any thoughts on that initially, Nick? No, I'm just thinking about

Nick · 06:39things like childcare. This is, um, I wouldn't say it's off topic, but I, I actually had someone reach out who wants to come on our podcast and talk about childcare and I think it could be interesting, but listening to you discussing, uh, you know, one, uh, income household used to work, I just look at the industries like childcare, which have

Nick · 07:00just absolutely boomed.

Nick · 07:02I'm like, Oh, okay, well that makes sense because now two people need to work. So the child needs to get taken care of. So yeah, I don't know. I was just thinking about that stuff when you were talking about it. But, um, there used to be a, I used to hear people say when you'll, you would question Australia's ability to continue to grow, you did used to hear people say, well, we're still cheap compared to other major.

Nick · 07:28Uh, major cities in the world, Hong Kong, New York, and whatnot. But looking at those stats that you just read out, I think Hong Kong's an outlier. Um, for obvious reasons, it's just difficult to build more property. We're not anymore. Like we we've, we've caught up. We're more expensive than the U S um, which kind of makes sense.

Nick · 07:47But when, you know, you're rattling off places like Adelaide, uh, in the top 10, well Adelaide in the top 10, like that's crazy when you think about it because Adelaide's been in the past, been seen as a,

Nick · 08:00uh, a state that, um, wasn't that desirable, particularly in this country. So that to me says, well, how much room is this to still go?

Nick · 08:09And does Any more expensive or do you just continue seeing like you're seeing in Hong Kong where only the wealthy can own property? And that's that's the argument that's floating around at the moment. Yeah, particularly in this country is are we forcing? Wealth and more and more wealth into those that can afford property Versus the younger people coming through

Marty · 08:31New York's about eight point one times income now Maybe you know higher incomes as well, obviously, but still in comparison It's, uh, it's an interesting stat.

Jason · 08:41Well, uh, look, to be honest, I think we've kicked off this episode. It's quite depressing. The thought of how much it is to buy property, how little it is, you know, our median incomes compared to this. Don't worry,

Marty · 08:52Jase. I've got the good stuff coming up later. Don't worry. For Aussie families at

Jason · 08:57home, you know, we want them to succeed.

Jason · 08:59And,

Jason · 09:00uh, I feel like they're coming to the numbers game to, to learn all these tips or tricks or, you know, the things that they don't know before they listen to this. So I'm really hoping you've got a solution for me, Marty. Cause you know, thinking back to 2000s was, you know, GST came in then John Howard, but 2005 I was finishing uni and whatnot.

Jason · 09:18So I was like, oh, uni high school, even BS. I agree. It doesn't feel like that long ago, but in saying that I did see. Uh, silly video that popped up of a, um, a girl at a bar trying to buy a drink and her ID said 2007 and the bartender was like, no, you can't get a drink. You're not 18. And she's like, check my ID again.

Jason · 09:36So all of a sudden, like you got kids, babies from 2007. Now at bars buying drinks. So, you know, time is a weird thing, but, and you

Marty · 09:44both make really, you know, relevant points, Nick, to childcare, uh, you know, observation, like you look at the birth rate in 2008 and, you know, most average families had 2.2, uh, 2.202 kids per

Marty · 10:00household that's now dropped in 2024 to 1.2 kids per household.

Marty · 10:05So you talk about childcare, people needing to work to stimulate. a former lifestyle. That's, that's an incredible change. Um, and, and you look at just things like, you know, I think that we can all agree there's higher stress out there with people going, you know, I have to make money to keep, not only keep up with the Joneses, but to at least have a bite with them.

Marty · 10:26So it's like, it's, there's stuff, but again, moving forward, we look at the property growth and we look at wage growth. So it's only been two and a half percent. per annum, like wage growth. This last year has been 3. 5, has been a bit higher. But when you look at property growing at 6 or 7%, Nick, you've always brought it up that, you know, how sustainable is that?

Marty · 10:48And when do we cap ourselves out, up? And what, like, what needs to change in order to In order to rectify it. Any thoughts on

Nick · 10:56that? Well, I think particularly in today's environment where it's

Nick · 11:00not just, um, the houses that have, you know, going up on average at 6%, look at what's happened just with the cost of goods.

Nick · 11:06And I know we've got inflation, um, under control at the moment. It looks like we might have, but it's been out of control for quite some time. And. You, I would, I would suggest just the general cost of goods is chewing up most of, most of that increase, um, uh, in, in wages growth, there's no room then to, you know, go the extra mile on the mortgage because of the cost of.

Nick · 11:33Um, and then you go into building and the cost to build a new home and all that just keeps skyrocketing and that's not going backwards at any time period. So yeah, you know, I think, um, I've mentioned this before, but where does it all end? I can't, I can't see it doing what it did in the last 20 years. And you and I had this conversation in the office the other day because

Nick · 12:00we're at 50 percent or so of our wages.

Nick · 12:04In funding a mortgage in, in, in some areas, can that push to 60 to 70? I probably can't because then there's not enough money for, um, to put food on the table, pay your rates, pay your insurances. So yeah. How much room has it got to grow? Like what is that max? If it's. If we're paying out 50 percent of our net salary now, I don't know the answer to this, but where does it cap out?

Nick · 12:26Well, it's 60%. That's where it caps out because the reality is then we can't afford to eat. So that's why I questioned the, the long term viability, not of property. I think it's a great asset and I think it will, it will always grow, particularly in our country, but will outlier from an investment return?

Nick · 12:44point of view that it has been, um, the last 20 years, particularly the right properties anyway. And I think just to clarify, I think the right properties still will be outliers as far as return goes because, uh, people,

Nick · 13:00people are earning more money. Um, you know, some of the figures you get that get thrown around these days, like it's just whether it's sports people or whatever it might be, but.

Nick · 13:09They're just, there is a lot of money around there. It just seems to be held by less people. So I think good quality property will always. Perform at a really good level because people are just earning more money and they'll pay more for it. But what about just the normal property you talked about the middle ring?

Nick · 13:28What happens there? Can it continue to do what it's done purely based on the fact that you know, there's no more money left to, to, to, to service more debt.

Marty · 13:36Yeah. And Jase, I'll throw some numbers. So let's say. Let's say we're at a halfway point. We're talking about 9. 8 times Sydney, 13. 8 times income to property value.

Marty · 13:46So let's say if we were to meet in the middle at around five times like Leeds and you know, some other Austin, Texas and things like that. So we still got our income at 87 and a half. The net is 5, 698 per month. Uh, we would have to

Marty · 14:00be purchasing property if we want that same level. at 440, 000 as a property fi price, with a mortgage of around about, let's say 400, 000, which would be 2, 463 per month.

Marty · 14:14Now that's still 50 percent of your income if there's one person taking out that mortgage. So, It's um, it, it just throws it into perspective of, yes, you definitely need two people, you know, earning a good amount of money. But some people, you know, like Nick was saying on the other side of the fence, are earning 45 grand each.

Marty · 14:34You know what I mean? It's like, there's, there's things to weigh up across the board here. So, and the other thing that really got my goat in a way in regards to migration was in order to prop Australia up, there was a stat I read that an existing Australian that lives in the country cost the government 85, 000 over a lifetime for

Marty · 15:00services provided on a mass scale.

Marty · 15:02And for an immigrant coming into the country. They actually make the government 198, 000 over the lifetime because they're coming at a later stage with money for services provided. Now that was just, yeah, it was just some things I was reading on the weekend. Now that system needs to change. We can't, we've got to inspire innovation within our country.

Marty · 15:24It can't just be all property where we're making money off and stamp duty and everything going to the government. We have to innovate and create in this country to be able to make sure that the system is actually lucrative in what we're doing to run the damn country. It's um, crazy. And we're expecting 2.

Marty · 15:431 million immigrants to come in over the next five years. And I've got no problem, my dad's an immigrant, no problem with it at all. But I'm going, but we've got to do that in order to make sure we're okay. You know, it's like something just doesn't feel right around those

Marty · 16:00numbers. And we just, I think we've got to have a big reshape in our thinking in order for everyone to progress, you know, cause I think about 10 years, 20 years down the track, you know, you start to think about your own kids and you're going.

Marty · 16:13Well, what's it look like then if it's changed so much in the last 25 years and you start to ask those bigger questions, um, yeah, thoughts, Jase?

Jason · 16:23Mate, it's just brain exploding with everything you're throwing at me. It, like, it's a, it's a scary thought to think of that future, but It's a future that we're all going to be here for.

Jason · 16:32I mean, fingers crossed, touch wood. Um, I'm sure we all plan, at least everyone here plans on living for another 30 or 40 years,

Marty · 16:39give or take. You

Jason · 16:40guys might. So give or take, you know, and we are going to be facing this world where, you know, I just mapped out in the background. You know, if in Melbourne, as an example, I think we're just say we were on the list, um, 7th most, most expensive at 9.

Jason · 16:558 times income. Um, if we keep going at 2 to 3 percent wage growth and

Jason · 17:00then property prices go up at 6 or 8%, very soon that becomes at 12 times income within 5 years, 5 to 10 years. So, it, we, it continues to get further and further out of reach but there's no world at the moment where I see wage growth being above property growth.

Jason · 17:17Unless something drastic happens. And like Nick said, at some point, there's got to be a point where property prices stop what they've done every year for the last. Well, in Australia, what is it? We were at 70 years of straight property growth, property price growth on average across the board. So maybe a little bit more now that might be an old start.

Jason · 17:35Um, but yeah, so I think, you know. What are the options? I mean, taxes, we've talked taxes before. I think the GST rate should go up and I think income tax should come down. Um, that would then mean if you've got more money and you're spending more money, it's being collected through goods and services, not just on your income tax.

Jason · 17:54And it means people who. Then get more money in their pocket can choose selectively on how they spend it and where they

Jason · 18:00spend it. Um, and even the childcare thing, you know, Nick, you'll be facing that at some point in the near future as well. Um, but you know, the whole thing, it just amounts to what is, what, what, what creates a sustainable future for Australia.

Jason · 18:12You know, we, yes, there's less kids per household, but then, you know, we continue to bring in migrants that have a net positive benefit to us, which, which is great. But why is it that, like, why, you know, if you're an Australian that's here, why are you having an impact on welfare and the health system and everything else?

Jason · 18:30Like there's, there's an underlying inherent thing that is wrong with this country. If

Marty · 18:35it's failing,

Jason · 18:36but being born here and being an Australian. You end up costing the government money, whether that's the health system, obesity, whatever it is, um, there's, you know, and look on this, on this podcast in this format, there's a lot of big problems that we're not going to be able to unpack.

Jason · 18:51But, uh, yeah, look, I can't even give you that many answers, Marty. It is mind blowing and, uh. Maybe what we do need to do is come back into something that we can take

Jason · 19:00away and, uh, get me back to feeling good because you've got me really, uh, worked up about this.

Marty · 19:04Well, let's, let's turn the ship very quickly now, but if people are getting into property, because it's still like you say, a strong asset class is you've got to pay down debt quickly.

Marty · 19:13You can't just sit on debt. for 30 years and, you know, double the money for the banks out there. You want to get in, you want to have a strategy to get back to that five times income cover, you know, and get that debt down to those, you know, 400, 500 levels where it's sustainable and you can live a life. I think that's, that's really critical.

Marty · 19:34So often people get into mortgages, they just let it slide on the whole and, you know, the banks end up making the money on it. So really get into a mortgage and then create a strategy. to get that mortgage down ASAP. Cause then you're creating equity and you're creating future opportunity for you and your family.

Marty · 19:53Critical. I think that's absolutely critical. Um, I think there's going to be a massive and we've talked about this

Marty · 20:00previously the Gen X's and the Boomers really we've got to think of new investment ideas of how that, those generations can allocate money Directly to their kids with some sort of investment advantage for the boomers like almost a instrument that Instead of just using equity in a parent's home, which you can do to get in but you got to repay the debt quick Something where if boomers have money available that they can pass that down to the children before they die But there's some sort of investment benefit in doing it Um, so then the kids don't have to pay as much and then there's a direct benefit going to the parent as well.

Marty · 20:42So I think, I think there's something that could be done there that's probably not as uh, restrictive as having, you know, higher and higher debts. So it's just a, yeah, it's just a thought process. Um. The other thing I think that's going to happen is people are going to make more logical choices

Marty · 21:00around property.

Marty · 21:00There's been a lot of talk about apartments going up in Melbourne. And, and again, I think, um, yeah, forget about the three quarter acre backyard. I think that's where, you know, that's where there's going to be people purchasing to get in. And I, I was thinking, I'm going, well, Australians really want their backyard, but when you have migration in from different countries that are used to that type of environment with apartment living, then.

Marty · 21:25I guess they're not expecting that. So I go, there could be a big opportunity for prices to go up there into the future. Similar to what's happening on the Gold Coast. We have a lifestyle choice. People are getting into apartments because they're just priced out of housing at the average level.

Nick · 21:41Brisbane's

Marty · 21:42another one, mate. And

Nick · 21:42you would think Brisbane, and this isn't to stereotype any state, but you would think of any state. It was going to be anti apartment, I would suggest it to be somewhere like Queensland because, you know, they're used to bigger properties, um, less CBD kind of action historically.

Nick · 21:59That's

Nick · 22:00obviously changing. I think the Brisbane unit price, uh, was caught up something like 18 percent in the last 12 months. Now Massive. That's crazy because that That, uh, that particular market was hit heavily, uh, there was a lot of, um, uh, apartments that were built. Um, you know, maybe six, seven years ago, however long ago it was, and it just, just took time.

Nick · 22:22It just took time for that supply to stop outstripping the demand. Now the demand is there, there's nowhere else to go. So, to your point, you've got people coming in, um, that are used to maybe living in apartment that aren't used to a 500 square meter building. Uh, backyard and it purely just becomes, uh, a price point.

Nick · 22:42It's, uh, we don't have another option, so we need to go into an apartment because we don't have the ability to buy a townhouse or, or a house. So yeah, something. Well, something needs to change from, um, from that side, particularly in Melbourne. But I

Nick · 23:00think it will be, like you said, um, immigrants coming in who are used to that kind of living.

Nick · 23:05And, you know, we've got a park across the road of our office and, um, I don't know if you remember, Marty, but we had a, we had a barbecue over there maybe six months ago. And what was interesting was, uh, and we're just near Flagstaff Garden, so we're very close to CBD, a lot of apartments around us. What was interesting is the people that were lined up to use the barbecues in the park.

Nick · 23:27So I think there was, there's two or three barbecues over there where you come and put your coin in and, and you're away. So we went over there just thinking, oh, we'll just walk up and, you know. Cook our sausages and our burgers, no problem. No, there was a lineup. Um, and you could tell it was people that lived in the apartments and that's what they did.

Nick · 23:44There was a Friday afternoon and they would come out, uh, they obviously didn't have a barbecue, but they would come out and they would sit in the park and they would look like that's what they did, you know, at least once or twice a week. So that for me was an eye opener to go, okay, well, geez, these people living in apartments and this is how they're getting.

Nick · 23:59Um,

Nick · 24:00out and about. It's not just we're in the city and we're going somewhere out for dinner. We can actually go to the park, got a bigger area to run around. Um, you know, there's lawn bowls there, there's bocce, and we can actually sit there and have a barbecue. So that was, that was a real, and I always think back to that moment and think, um, I wouldn't do that, but other people are doing that and, uh, and more than okay with it, so

Jason · 24:22that's the, there's the rise of build to rent now as well, because I mean, there's that.

Jason · 24:26You know, the huge growth in that. I think Melbourne leads the way with about six and a half thousand apartments under construction. And there's another 5, 000, give or take in the pipeline. So if you look at the development pipeline around build to rent, that's, that's, I guess, their way of identifying that, well, hey, the, we need, we need more, uh, places for people to live.

Jason · 24:48But they're not gonna be able to necessarily buy an apartment for a million dollars, but these big venture capital mobs and, you know, um, you know, huge, huge investors have pulled their funds together and gone, cool, let's build apartment

Jason · 25:00buildings and they're purely a hundred percent rental only. And we'll own the whole building and we'll own all the services.

Jason · 25:06And then they create a marketplace around it. You know, they get a hairdresser involved and a, you know, shopping center underneath and they get rent and all of a sudden they can make referral comms on sending everyone from the apartment to the particular restaurant or shopping center. And yeah, it's going to be a bit of a different world when they start popping up left, right, and center, but you know, again, if it solves the.

Jason · 25:25Giving someone a place to live when they go look I don't need to buy an apartment in Melbourne But I want to live there. You rent where you want to live and then maybe yeah, as you said Marty that 400, 000 home That you can afford based on your salary. You've just got to buy it somewhere out regional and stick that on the market for rent as well.

Jason · 25:41So then you're starting to solve some problems for yourself and for somebody else.

Marty · 25:45And that's the thing. Sometimes we get so structured in our thought processes of what life needs to be based on history. And all I'm doing is challenging the audience to think about. What is possible given the circumstances, the new set of circumstances coming up?

Marty · 25:59And it might be, yeah,

Marty · 26:00absolutely buy, you know, pay down debt, get yourself in a stronger position. I'm not discouraging that at all. But I go, think about alternate options where you might buy regionally. Maybe you subdivide a property into two and create some cash flow for yourself or create some equity for yourself.

Marty · 26:15So it's going to be a skill environment. You're going to have to learn new skills in order to get that upside and get ahead. And I think, um, Again, I think, you know, people, what concerns me is that people are sort of going, geez, I'm not getting to where I want to get to. And don't worry. It's like, there's a lot of people like that because that's what the system is at the moment.

Marty · 26:37But again, people are going into crypto, people are trying to speculate at high levels. Trying to get the, you know, 600 grand win somewhere because they want to get ahead. And, and what concerns me about that is the vulnerability in that of putting it all in the line in something really speculative and then burning any opportunity they might have as well.

Marty · 26:59So

Marty · 27:00again, not to do it, but have a methodology. around whatever you're doing that makes sense to build your future sustainably into the future. So, like I said, I think, um, that learn, learn, learn. Upskill, upskill, upskill. You know, if you can manage your money and manage projects, you know, you can still get ahead.

Marty · 27:21You know, maybe it's someone starting a business when they're 21 years of age that usually wouldn't even think about that. because they want to create that higher income and they have a novel idea. These are the types of environments to, if you're going to speculate, speculate based on your effort and skill and growing skill and seeing where that takes you.

Marty · 27:41Um, don't, don't just burn. Extra money, which puts you further behind as well. So it was just more putting it out there. We have to think about it. I think, you know, the government's got to do some heavy thinking. We need a system that shakes up things with more innovation, creating more opportunities for business, to be able to employ people with higher

Marty · 28:00wages and to do really, really well.

Marty · 28:02We don't want a system that drowns us. It's, um, doesn't make any sense to do that. So again, the people will speak and, but the people need to just go transcend the system and think about for their own backyards, what are you going to do to do better, um, given the circumstances in front of you and that's all you can do.

Marty · 28:21And there's plenty to be done in that. And that is innovation. So I wanted to leave you with, yeah, a lot of positive points as well.

Jason · 28:28Now, well said Marty, they're the numbers that we've been dealt. So there's no point, uh, dwelling on it. You need to find innovative solutions and yeah, come up, come up with things that you can do and, uh, what I think you can do if you have listened to this and think, Oh my God, I don't even know where to start or where to end.

Jason · 28:42Well, come and talk to Marty and Nick, the team at Innovate, obviously, you know. Full of mortgage brokers, financial planners, and just absolute gurus, uh, that'd be more than happy to help you out. I know myself after hearing what Marty's just gone through, I think I'm going to book a sit down with the team, uh, and get some things off my plate as well.

Jason · 28:59So,

Jason · 29:00um, thank you for listening to another episode of The Numbers Game. It's great to be back for an all new season and another year in 2025. If you're listening, uh, in the back catalog or listening right now, it's great to have you back and great to have you here listening. Until next time,

Marty · 29:12learn to manage your money.

Marty · 29:14Or it will manage you. Game over.

Jason · 29:18This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. The conversations are of a general nature and do not qualify as financial or tax advice. We recommend before you make any financial decisions, you consult a licensed professional. Individuals on the podcast may hold positions in the companies discussed. ---