Grant Austin - Disrupting Business Payments

Jason · 00:00Welcome to episode 173 of The Numbers Game. I'm Jase and I'm here with Mick. How are you, Nicko?

Nick · 00:05I'm good. Feeling lonely? No, Marty? Feel lost? Feel lost. Haven't got the dulcet tones of Marty Vitikovic, but um, we've got someone who I think might just outdo Marty on the IQ, um, stats. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm honey jazzed.

Nick · 00:21I'm, I'm pretty pumped for today's episode. How are you, mate?

Jason · 00:23Mate, I'm good. I'm good. Uh, Yeah, just depending on when this all goes live, but not long before I fly out to London to get the London marathon coming up. So excited, pumped up and about, but you know what? Excited, more excited for this conversation for now, because I'm just focusing on one hour at a time until I get on that plane.

Jason · 00:38And, uh, you've brought in a really interesting guest for us. Why don't you give us a bit of a background and introduction on who our guest is today, Nick?

Nick · 00:46Yeah, cool. Well, I'll let him give the background, but we've got Grant Austin from pay. com. au, which is a reasonably new business that's making waves.

Nick · 00:57It's an interesting business that, um, I think a lot of

Nick · 01:00SMEs will find value in learning more about. So not only about the business, but also just this, just the journey of how the business was created and, um, and, and how they've grown so quickly. So welcome Grant. Austin, uh, how are you, mate? Very well.

Nick · 01:15Thanks. Thanks for having me, gents. Great to be on the podcast. No worries. And, um, look, we're obviously going to rip into the business stuff, mate, but, um, keen to just get a bit of background on yourself, um, career wise. Um, And, and, and what not, and how did you end up in, um, in, in the current business, pay.

Nick · 01:33com. au?

Grant · 01:34I'm a chartered accountant by trade, so Jase, you'll be, uh, happy to hear that, um.

Jason · 01:38In great company?

Grant · 01:39Yeah, I started off, uh, in the chartered accounting world and, uh, worked in mergers and acquisitions for the first seven years of my career at Grant Thorne and then PricewaterhouseCoopers, uh, after that.

Grant · 01:50Love that, that space. Learned a lot. It was all, it was awesome. And, um, but kind of soon realized that, you know, I kind of enjoyed being active in business and, you know, kind of being

Grant · 02:00operational and kind of, you know, inputting into business rather than come in and do some consulting, disappear and, um, you know, kind of never see what actually happens after that.

Grant · 02:08So, um, after I left that, that kind of consulting space, I moved into West Farmers in their, in their, digital and data area, which would commonly be referred to as flybys. Um, the loyalty space, uh, which was fantastic. I really enjoyed being in that space. Obviously it took me out of my comfort zone. Um, you know, kind of being a numbers, numbers guy, but I worked kind of in the strategy team there on some pretty cool stuff, how to kind of, you know, work with In the digital media world around monetization of data, worked in payments and looking at how we could, uh, you know, the loyalty program of Flybuys could interact in the payment space through digital wallets and, and that sort of stuff.

Grant · 02:47And obviously got a really, um, good understanding of, of kind of the loyalty space and how that all works. So, uh, you know, fascinating. Um, experience and love that. Um, and from then, um, kind

Grant · 03:00of, I actually ended up working in a digital, uh, uh, marketing startup out of the U S a tech tech business that helps kind of with those loyalty programs, uh, monetizing, um, I guess, data assets into the, you know, into the digital marketing world, um, And, and that again was a fascinating, that was kind of connected to what I did in, in, uh, in the West Farmer space.

Grant · 03:21Um, and then interestingly enough, I, um, a friend of mine from the Merchant Acquisitions world back, um, you know, when I was doing that, that stuff had just acquired a business called Point Hacks. Um, so a couple of guys who are ex, uh, iSelect were, were doing that. They'd kind of, rapidly double the size of that business after kind of acquiring it was going gangbusters.

Grant · 03:43And, uh, he called me up and knew I had a bit of background in that space and said, Hey, we're looking at how we, how we grow this business, um, which ultimately led into, uh, me doing some kind of strategic consulting work and then, um, you Working with some, some ideas, which pay. com. au was kind of the

Grant · 04:00number one recommendation and they were then fortunate enough to seed that opportunity with some capital and kind of separate it out.

Grant · 04:06And we ended up building it to kind of where we are today, which is we've signed up over 15, 000 customers, which is pretty exciting. We've done just about 3 billion in payments in the short time we've been around and, um, kind of going from strength to strength, so pretty exciting. But that's the kind of snapshot of, uh.

Grant · 04:22I

Jason · 04:24think, uh, I've always got this joke about CAs versus CPAs, Grant. I think you're ruining my joke. Cause I usually say that the P in CPA stands for personality and that CAs, usually a lot of great CAs in the world. And you come across as someone with a great personality, definitely got the ability to capture me so far.

Jason · 04:43And mate, the journey in the background sounds, you know, I love seeing career progression or the evolution of someone to be able to use what they're learning and continue to evolve into that next space and, you know, highlight ideas or gaps in the market and things like that. So just to go

Jason · 05:00back a bit for now, pay.

Jason · 05:01com. au for anyone out there who hasn't come across a great catchy name because straight away, I mean, people are going to punch in pay. com. au and go and check it out. How does it work? What exactly is it and what do people use it for?

Grant · 05:12Yeah, look, we're a B2B payment platform. Um, you know, predominantly in the kind of payable space, although we're doing a few other things around that.

Grant · 05:19Um, and what we do effectively is we make the payables payment experience really seamless. And, uh, we add a rewards element to, to that. So people will be familiar with credit card rewards. A lot of business owners use credit cards to earn rewards. Um, we started off effectively facilitating, uh, payment B2B payments where you otherwise wouldn't be able to use a credit card and then built out a rewards proposition.

Grant · 05:43You know, I guess similar to like an American Express rewards, but you know, you don't have to have a credit card. You don't have to have an American Express, um, and you know, I've kind of built out that rewards proposition ourselves. So, you know, we, we, we basically do any payment, um, kind of. across, across all the

Grant · 06:00business side of things.

Grant · 06:00And we, we would kind of say anyway, so whether you want to pay on a credit card or through a bank payment, we can do all of that. It's all integrated into one seamless platform, uh, integrated into zero. So the reconciliation process is, is quite seamless. Um, and yeah, as I said, we make that payment experience really seamless with that kind of differentiation and mode with the, uh, rewards proposition.

Grant · 06:21So we've built out that rewards proposition to, you know, have airline partners, but you can also. You know, redeemed for pretty much anything, um, through our platform at, you know, and we pride ourselves in making sure those redemptions and, you know, the rewards, uh, you know, redeemed for a great value.

Nick · 06:36So I guess the, the problem or the, the, yeah, well, I guess the problem you're looking to solve in the market was the only real way, uh, you could get the reward program happening or the existing reward programs were all based around credit cards.

Nick · 06:49Whereas with what you do, I don't have to have a credit card. I can just, I guess, log a list of payables, send it to you. You make those payables happen.

Nick · 07:00Um, if there's no credit card, I assume you debit a bank account and then there's rewards for how much is spent. Is that around about right?

Grant · 07:07Yeah, absolutely.

Grant · 07:08So obviously we do all the credit card payments as well. You can make any of those payments, you know, allowed for by their credit card companies, they set certain rules. Um, so you can earn your credit card rewards through us on payments you otherwise wouldn't be able to make. And then, as you said, absolutely.

Grant · 07:23You, um, you know, you can make bank payments, upload your ABA file or sync in with Xero, make those payments through a linked bank account, which we perform verification on when you, when you add it into your. Pay. com. au, call it digital wallet for want of a better word, and then earn rewards along the way.

Nick · 07:39How, I'm just curious on, you look at the market and you go, okay, well, Amex are doing it and you mentioned maybe some others. Like, what was the moment where you went, no, this is going to work and we'll do it this way. Like, how do you, obviously, apart from the credit card stuff, what, what differentiates you mainly from Amex, um, you know, an

Nick · 08:00existing provider out there?

Grant · 08:01We call ourselves the Switzerland of, of, you know, payments and, and rewards in that we, you know, we basically work with all payment methods. Um, we, you know, we're not, we're not only Amex and similarly with, from a rewards perspective, we want, you know, we want to work with. Uh, all rewards partners so that people can be redeeming for the things that they want not, you know, we're not specifically tied into, you know, one provider, et cetera.

Grant · 08:26So, you know, when you say, you know, there's people out there doing this stuff, well, yeah, there's people doing bits and pieces of what we do. There is a couple of businesses around that do just the credit card piece that I've talked about. We were kind of the first to really do the, you know, rewards with bank payments, um, and obviously bringing that all together.

Grant · 08:44And then we've, you know, put our real. kind of differentiation in market is, you know, I guess our rewards proposition, which has taken some time and a long time to build out all these rewards partners. And, you know, kind of the way we, we do that, um, is pretty much unique in market

Grant · 09:00to what we do. No one else was doing that on bank payments previously, but yeah, obviously Amex doing bits and pieces around that.

Grant · 09:06But again, Amex is a, um, I call it a credit card working capital company that has a good rewards program. We've kind of taken, you know, bits and pieces from different, um, areas and built, put it all together into one seamless ecosystem we call it.

Jason · 09:19I definitely do like the idea of like that, that ecosystem, that login point where you can see and choose what you're doing, I mean, Um, go into it a little bit as we keep expanding, but seeing customers or clients and future advisory using pay.

Jason · 09:32com. au and how, you know, it could be used to pay wages and then it debits off the Amex and you buy yourself 30 or 60 days, you get some points kind of doubling up here, they're everywhere. And. It could be ATO payment, could be a super fund payment, could just be standard, you know, pay the materials bill, whatever it is, but yeah, it does create some pretty cool flexibility.

Jason · 09:51Um, I was going to say, mate, I was doing a bit of LinkedIn stalking, uh, before we jumped on and noticed the, um, AFR fast starter

Jason · 10:00list. You came in at 16th, um, which is an absolutely amazing achievement. So congratulations and well done.

Grant · 10:05Thank you.

Jason · 10:06I'm interested in, you know, the day to day life of a business that grows that fast.

Jason · 10:10I mean, Nick, Marty, and I often sit back on the podcast. We hear from our customers that talk about scaling and growth being one of the most difficult things that you can do in business. Um, you know, to be, to be on the fast starter list, I assume growth is manic and crazy and a bit chaotic. Talk to us about, you know, what it is like working in a business that is growing at such a rapid rate.

Grant · 10:30Yeah. Absolutely. I think, you know, to be honest, it's one of the things I love about it. It's, um, you know, there's a million things going on all the time. Um, and you know, the biggest thing I think, you know, to be successful with growing fast growth, growth companies is just around prioritization. You know, there's a million things we could be doing the same with our products.

Grant · 10:48It's the same with, you know, what we could be focusing from, you know, our sales function, our marketing function. It's, you know, what, what's going to shift the dial the most and make sure we, you know, Um, and then we'll come back to prioritizing, you know, what are the key top three

Grant · 11:00things we can be doing to shift the dial.

Grant · 11:01But it's an exciting environment. You know, we've been around for a short, short window of, you know, really four years. And, um, you know, we're kind of just pushing up to just over 60, 60 staff now. And, you know, even that in itself is, uh, you know, exciting. You know, it's, it's huge where, you know, last year we had probably 30 staff, now we've got 60, you know, just the infrastructure and the, you know, the change that comes with that and working with all those people who, you know, have their own careers and, and live livelihoods and kind of working with that.

Grant · 11:28That's a huge, huge part of it. But it's, yeah, I think it's, you know, being involved in innovation, you know, having an idea and bringing something to life and And making it happen and seeing it have a difference is, is, is um, the exciting part of it. But it's um, yeah, definitely a, a fun, fun, fun thing to do, which I love.

Nick · 11:46I love what you said there around the prioritization because you know, we're, we're 16 years into business now and it's only, I think the bigger you get, just the more opportunities that come your way and the

Nick · 12:00more, the more things you've got to deal with. And yeah, we're only talking last week around, you know, bringing in a quarterly, um, we've, we've already got a quarterly meeting, but bringing into that.

Nick · 12:11with each department. What's the one thing that's not negotiable for you this quarter? Obviously you've got all these other things you're focusing on, but out of all those things, there might be three there, what's the one thing that you have to do to your point to shift the needle? And I'm, I'm kind of only just realizing that now that sometimes we can get caught up in so many things, but.

Nick · 12:31We, we, we really can only tick off one or two things in a quarter. So just how do you determine, um, just to get a bit more granular on that, how do you determine what's going to shift the needle from a process point of view? Do you have a leadership meetings where you sit around, you look at all the things that have got to be done in 12 months and you pick two or three of them off?

Nick · 12:52I know it's a pretty basic question, but it's something that we've been through ourselves. So

Grant · 12:57yeah, he's spot on. It's like, you know, we always trying to

Grant · 13:00get down the list of all the things we can. And then it's a function of, you know, filtering those out and, you know, trying to put some, you know, kind of science and thought behind, you know, what's the size of, you know, what's the size of the prize.

Grant · 13:12What's the thing that's going to, as I said, move the needle the most, um, kind of getting it down into, you know, we really think this will move the needle. it might not be that sophisticated but, you know, often it requires a bit of a gut feel judgment call, you know, and hopefully the experience and experience you've had helps you make the right call about that.

Grant · 13:35But it's never pure. You know, a pure science in my view, but it's um, it's definitely something that, you know, you've got to, got to continually work on and, you know, if you start doing something and you realize it's not going to move the dial, then you got to, you know, be bold enough to pull the pin and not just say, Hey, we chose to do this, follow through.

Grant · 13:50It's like, you know, quickly test and learn stuff. If it's working, roll it out and, you know, give it everything. And if it's not working, then say, Hey guys, this isn't working, let's kind of push this

Grant · 14:00aside and get onto the, onto the next thing. But it's, yeah, you know, you make mistakes along the way and hopefully you learn every time.

Nick · 14:05I know you've got some clients that are using pay. com. au. Um, how's that going for them? And one of the other things I'd like to do as we're talking about this is I know we've kind of talked about what you do, um, grant, but maybe just an actual example. So for all of our business owners at home, you know, I could use, if I've got a GST debt of 30 K, I can pay.

Nick · 14:31Um, I can pay that through pay. com. au, I can get this many points and then that means I can go and do whatever I need to do with those points. So yeah, Jase, maybe, yeah, just how are your clients finding it? Cause I know you've got some big clients that are using the system or the business.

Jason · 14:47Look, I think the ones that are using it have gone.

Jason · 14:49This is awesome for the, like the ease ability of the interface of uploading things, one easy login, um, the ABA file upload sinking into zero to make your accountant's life or your bookkeeper's

Jason · 15:00life easy. Um, but like a real life example might be, you know, big businesses often have cashflow crunches where you've got a whole bunch of accounts receivable, whole bunch of accounts payable.

Jason · 15:09And you might be at a point where it's like, look, we've got enough cash. We could pay. Wages, or we could pay the ATO in full right now, but we've also got a credit card or a credit, um, what do you call it? Like a working capital, Amex, all these different kinds of car providers do different things to call different things, but you might be able to access money for 30 or 60 days, interest free on your Amex, for example.

Jason · 15:31So rather than emptying out your cash from your bank account. You can ease the cashflow crunch. Chuck it through pay. com. au, comes off your Amex. And all of a sudden you got 30 or 60 days to wait for those accounts receivable to come in, almost like the trade finance app we talked about the other day, Nick.

Jason · 15:47But it just allows for, for ease ability and making, um, I guess it gives you options and choices as well. And then beyond that, I mean, there's the excitement of, you know, I've got a business partner, Greg, who we've spoken about many times before,

Jason · 16:00loves to gamify things, loves points, loves different hacks.

Jason · 16:03Um, you know, note, note the name of the other business point hacks, loves to be able to just know that he's getting a little win out of something. So, you know, we do a lot of business trips in, you know, around the country. We've got an office up on the sunny coast. We had a partner over in Perth and often, you know, we'd be digging into our own pocket.

Jason · 16:19Um, and paying cash for flights now as part of our day to day business, using future advisory as a real example, if we can be paying for different things, using pay. com. au, running up some points on our account, and then rather than paying cash for the flight to the sunny coast for me to go and work up there and make clients or work with my team member, we can I can book everything on points, which again helps future advisory save on a bit of that cash that I would have otherwise been shelling out to pay for a flight.

Jason · 16:46Um, I think there's absolute wins in that way. And we've seen examples where clients have, you know, been able to access different benefits. Um, you know, like I said, a golf clubs and different things like that. So, Um, happy people, happy people that are doing

Jason · 17:00it. I mean, of course there's fees and charges and GST and different stuff involved, but when you work out the difference, like what I've paid in some pay.

Jason · 17:06com. au fees, I would have been well and truly more out of pocket to pay for the flights up to over to Perth or up to the sunny coast, for example.

Grant · 17:13Yeah. It's a good, it's a good point, Jay. So I think, um, you know, economics is key to, to this, you know, as you say, we, we, we charge a fee. You're paying a fee. Um, you know, we have the confidence in our customers are always getting greater value in terms of what they're getting out of it than the, the, the fee they're paying.

Grant · 17:28But, you know, making sure you're doing that, um, and making the economics work for you as a business owner and your business is, is absolutely critical, um, to that. And I, you know, the, the working capital example of, of, you know, helping you fund cashflow, etc. Um, et cetera, when times are tough or you're going through a hot, fast growth phase where you, you know, um, sometimes you, you know, you've got payments that are coming quicker and you haven't quite collected the cash yet is a, is a really good, good example too.

Grant · 17:53I was talking to a customer on Friday about that exact thing and you know, you know, often you don't hear enough. Some people, you know, are

Grant · 18:00doing it because they like the points more and they get the benefit out of that, but you know, working capital is key for, um, for some businesses and it's a great, um, kind of benefit for what, for what we offer to customers.

Grant · 18:10Thanks.

Nick · 18:10Yeah, we, we did a whole episode, um, I don't know when it was, a couple of weeks ago on trade finance and just trying to, uh, educate people on, on, on what's, what's out there. But, um, yeah, I definitely have spoken to many businesses that use, use the Amex purely for, from a working capital point of view, um, because depending on, on your account, you can, you know, you, you can float costs for sort of 60 to 90 days.

Grant · 18:33The, you know, same with the cash flow of, um, you know, when you're buying airline tickets, et cetera. Like I'm going to the U. S. for, uh, the Money 2020 conference later this year and I'm, you know, managed to get business class flights with Qantas, you know, no cash flow out, outflow for the business, but I, you know, get to go over there and go in business class over to the U.

Grant · 18:52S. on a, you know, a long haul trip, which is, you know, saving us the cash outflow at the time for an early, early stage business growing rapidly. We know we, we're very conscious of

Grant · 19:00how we use our cash, et cetera. So, sorry. That was a great outcome.

Jason · 19:02It's, it's super clever and you know, on that, hopefully then there's something you can unpack us to the economies of how it works a little bit behind the scenes, but the partnerships that pay.

Jason · 19:12com. au has is obviously absolutely crucial to the success of the business. And I think, you know, we've, we've also done, you know, past steps on partnerships and why partnerships are important. And you know, sometimes in professional services land, we talk about referral partners. Now, when pay. com. au started, I imagined, you know, the first time you walk into a room and ask Qantas to become a points partner.

Jason · 19:33I don't know whether that conversation is easy and it happened straight away, but when it comes to getting all those partnerships on board, can you take us through a bit of the journey of, you know, It's a startup three or four years ago. Nobody knew what pay. com. au was. How do you get people to trust you to align their brands with what you were doing?

Jason · 19:50And then once that partnership happens, you know, is there kind of behind the scenes ways you monetize it for you guys, monetize it for them, or, you know, where's the win, win, win for

Jason · 20:00you, the brand partner, and then the customer.

Grant · 20:02Yeah, look, it's a great question. And you hit the nail on the head in terms of, you know, when we started out with this.

Grant · 20:07you know, growing this business. Obviously, as I said, we started accepting cards and making payments on, on cards, but we quickly wanted to build out our own rewards proposition. And you can't just turn that on overnight. It's a, you know, you've, as you said, you've got to be banging on the door of Qantas, who's the, you know, the biggest player by far and has the most power in this space, um, you know, and the most adoption in, in the Australian market.

Grant · 20:29Everyone knows what a Qantas point is. Everyone's most people are members of Qantas frequent flyer. So, um, you know, you've got to start off with a, you know, a good proposition for customers. And that was critical to, to get us going. And, um, you know, it wasn't an easy journey. As you say, you're a startup, you know, when you're dealing with one of the biggest organizations in corporate organizations in Australia, a startup with no track record is, is, you know, banging on the door saying, Hey, do a partnership with us is, Is a big ask and, you know, we're very obviously very thankful that they, you know,

Grant · 21:00took a gamble with us and, you know, I I'm sure they would say this as well, but they are, you know, absolutely blown away by the performance that we've delivered them as a, as a business.

Grant · 21:09I think they had no idea that we would grow as quickly as we had and, um, deliver to them what, what, um, you know, because we were, we were preaching at the time when we didn't have a customer on our, on our books. But, you know, it took a long time. It takes these deals with these big corporates when you're a nobody, it takes a long time.

Grant · 21:25It's about building trust. I was fortunate enough to have, you A bit of relationship with, um, some of the guys from previous, previous life that I was able to get in, talk to the right people to get the things moving. But, you know, it, it doesn't happen overnight. You've gotta, you know, pitch and pitch and sell, you know, sell the opportunity and, you know, back yourself to, to deliver on that.

Grant · 21:44And, you know, we were able to, to get there, but it's been a huge journey starting off with Qantas. But then, you know, we've got Virgin, Qatar, airway Airways, Singapore Airways, like even those international airlines. You know, we, we signed up Singapore, you know, really before we'd

Grant · 22:00even kind of launched, um, Qantas.

Grant · 22:02So it's not like they said, Oh, Qantas have done the deal, so, you know, they must be okay. You know, we had to work pretty hard to do that, but we knew that Singapore Airlines from in the reward space is a, um, you know, a great proposition for customers who want to redeem points, particularly flying into that European route.

Grant · 22:19It's a great airline, great product. Um, but you know, the best thing about Singapore Airlines, typically most people know in this space is that, you know, if you want to book a business class premium cabin seat, they've often got the best availability. You can find the seats, you know, at a time when you want to go.

Grant · 22:34Um, and the point, the value of the points are really good. So, you know, we, we knew them, they were a critical kind of pillar to our rewards proposition. And again, you know, we worked pretty hard to get in there, convince them, struck a deal. And I think often it comes down to, you know, you can get them interested and then you've got to, it's the art of negotiating the, the deal that's going to work for both or parties, right?

Grant · 22:54So, you know, how can you think about. Or ways to structure arrangement where, you know, that, you know, even

Grant · 23:00from a pricing perspective, for example, you might, you know, they might, you know, these airlines basically sell points to partners effectively. That's how it works. So we, you know, we, with some of them, we have a, um, scaling, uh, volume scaled, uh, pricing arrangement.

Grant · 23:13So we backed ourselves to get to, you know, high volumes pretty quickly. So we knew that we could make the economics work on our side and, um, you know, things like that. You know, working for them, work for us, etc. So, um, yeah, it's been a huge journey and, um, some of these airlines take a long time to deal with all the, you know, the different layers of management.

Grant · 23:31You've got to get it through and a lot of stuff around, you know, cyber security is big for these guys. You know, they got to, you know, uh, make sure they're comfortable in your systems and that, you know, cyber security and privacy are, uh, utmost importance. Put you through the ringer and put, you know, big strong wording in contracts around this.

Grant · 23:50So, you know, we were able to, we were able to prove that what we did, um, stacked up in the, on a, you know, in a corporate scale and global scale and they were happy to do the

Grant · 24:00deals. But yeah, great question.

Nick · 24:01Yeah. You know, I can only, I can only imagine like cyber is a big, uh, a big thing for our business. So, uh, I can only imagine what kind of scrutiny you're under from a, from a business like Qantas.

Nick · 24:12And on the other side, if you, if you can talk about it, but I think you've also done deals on the other side where you're dealing with, um, potential businesses, customers as well, where not just the rewards apply, but you're sort of kind of gaining access to SMEs through other groups that are bringing you on as a, um, An approved, I guess, uh, resource, is that, that's happening as well?

Nick · 24:34Um, so that you don't have to mention the companies if you don't want to, but you're going into big businesses as a, you know, an accredited, an accredited supplier.

Grant · 24:43Yeah, exactly. I think we're trying to do more and more of that. Um, you know, probably a simple version of that is, you know, we've got an arrangement with Xero where we're, we're approved.

Grant · 24:51A partner, payment partner for want of a better word and that obviously is a, uh, you know, we work collaboratively around, you know, acquiring customers, et cetera. Um, you

Grant · 25:00know, they've got a pretty, you know, standard process of doing that, but you know, there's, we're doing a number of other partnerships, some of them smaller working with associations exactly but, uh, um, as well, but there's, we're starting to do more things with kind of bigger, you know, brand names, as you say, but that are more of a kind of that referral partnership type style of arrangement.

Grant · 25:19So, um, yeah. Um, you know, the, the same kind of, uh, rigor goes into those type of deals as well when, you know, these big brands are working with, you know, small business like us, um, you know, needing to make sure that they've got the right, you know, they're not working with a fish and chip shop for want of a better word.

Nick · 25:35I guess on the topic of pitching and, you know, getting big businesses on it, I guess at the same time when you're, um, trying to grow as quick as you are and you are growing as quick as you are. I might just mention too, uh, 16th on the AFR. Uh, fast starter list, but you were second on the Deloitte list, um, this year, I think.

Nick · 25:53So kudos for mention that

Grant · 25:55before when Jason mentioned that. I wasn't sure if he was hiding that for a different reason. But yeah, number two

Grant · 26:00on the Deloitte fast,

Jason · 26:01fast ticker. I like to let Nick have a few things to throw in too. I mean, sometimes I try and make it all about me, but I've got to let Nick have his time to shine too.

Nick · 26:08Thank you. Yeah. Well, yeah, we mentioned 16th. We better mention number two. Um, so you're just on the pitching process. And yeah, growing a business, it takes capital. Um, and I think for a business like yours, unlike a lot, you kind of, it takes a lot of capital to create what you're creating versus someone out there who's, you know, providing a service and getting paid, you're kind of building a lot of infrastructure and whatnot prior to getting the reward for what you're doing.

Nick · 26:34Pardon the pun, but, um, so seeking investment, I think you've, you've gone to market a couple of times and raise money, um, keen to unpack that. Like I, I know you present to investors and, um, and, you know, obviously try and sell them where you think the business can go and, and, and get their money, but, um, Anything you can tell us on the mechanics behind that, like, like what does it actually entail?

Nick · 26:58You, you're going

Nick · 27:00to, to groups that have access to money or you're going to invest it yourself and you know, what do you have to put in front of these businesses? Um, particularly when, what really interests me is, When businesses go back numerous times, so you've obviously got to show metrics you're trying to hit and you need to hit them.

Nick · 27:16And then you probably go to the market again for more money. So yeah, just, just your experience around that. And, um, it's gotta be a difficult thing, um, asking people for money and getting by, and I guess, particularly in the early stages without too many runs on the board.

Grant · 27:31I'm fortunate enough to have some really good, strong board members who are very good in that space.

Grant · 27:36Um, um, A well connected, they've done it many times before. Um, so, you know, some great guidance, um, from them, but it's, you know, as you say, it's, it's, it's a huge process, you know, uh, I can't tell you the number of times we've worked on the pitch deck to investors, you know, that is critical to get that story right and making sure it's a seamless, um, you know, kind of, you know, where pitch or meeting

Grant · 28:00or whatever that, you know, you can get the key points across really seamlessly and quickly.

Grant · 28:04Obviously we have our, our business. is a little bit complicated to, uh, talk to, you know, in the way we operate, um, versus, you know, more simple businesses. And I guess what they're, what they're doing and how they come, come about. But, um, you know, we've refined that over, over time and, you know, we've spent hours and hours and hours, you know, refining the deck, even the, you know, the number of pages, what's the story is on that.

Grant · 28:27Um, and you get better and better as you do it more. So in the early days, um, you know, kind of, we're probably a bit, bit rusty around the edges, but we kind of learned from what resonated, what didn't resonate, and we've been fortunate enough to bring on some really big cornerstone, you know, fairly well known family offices, for want of a better word, or high net worth individuals that have supported us and, you know, I think, you know, so far we've, we've done well.

Grant · 28:50Um, we're looking to be very, very happy with kind of the results we've achieved. Um, so yeah, look, it's, it's a huge process. Um, we have a quarterly, um,

Grant · 29:00shareholder update, which, uh, we, you know, anyone can dial into as a shareholder and we have a great, um, process for providing information back to those shareholders as well, which is good.

Grant · 29:09Um, and look, we've been, you know, as I said, we've kind of, we've, Maybe done a little bit unorthodox in terms of chase, you know, we've got quite a number of investors, but they're that kind of high net worth, um, kind of individuals who can follow on. Uh, we, we've stayed away from the kind of venture capital funds, but we're probably now the, the next phase would be, you know, much larger, You know, kind of capital raise style check, uh, process, which, you know, try and work with one, one or two large, large, um, players who might, you know, kind of come in and take out, you know, a 10, 20 million check, uh, as opposed to kind of smaller amounts for, for a number of investors.

Grant · 29:46But, um, yeah, it's been a, it's been a huge journey, but as I said, fortunate enough to have some guys who are absolute gurus in the space and very well connected.

Nick · 29:54And just, just one more question on that. Do you feel, um, do you feel like.

Nick · 30:00A load of responsibility, like I'm, I'm just thinking about myself and if we ever borrow money, we just go to the bank.

Nick · 30:06So I don't, I don't feel that responsible, but, um, I think if I had shareholders, like did that, does that, does that weigh on you? Obviously business is business, but is that something you think about? You know, these people are giving me money or giving us money. We've, we've got to deliver here. Does it. Does it, does it stress you at all?

Grant · 30:23Absolutely. Absolutely. It's probably, you know, one of the things, particularly in the early days when, you know, we were just really an idea, obviously we had customers, um, but you know, you're talking about forecast numbers and you question, you look yourself and think, can we hit these, you know, um, you know, the big, big numbers.

Grant · 30:41And we look back now and go, geez, we, we, we absolutely blew them out of the, all that, like, All the investor decks we put together, we've basically blown the numbers out of the water. Um, so, you know, you have confidence over time, you go, ah, yeah, he's not easy, but you know what I mean? But in the early days I remember when we were raising capital, the first, you know, early stages, you know, you, you have to

Grant · 31:00give people a sign of what you can do in the future.

Grant · 31:03Um, and sometimes, you know, when you haven't got the track record or, or run rates to, to prove it, you know, you know, you can do it by doing the right things, but, um, you know, seeing it on paper and as you say, it got around. You know, people put in money and no one likes to go and tell, tell someone that, you know, the investment's not worth as much as they put in.

Grant · 31:21Um, you know, thankfully we're nowhere near what we've, you know, having to have those, any of those conversations. Um, you know, it's been a very positive story, uh, for us. But I know, you know, you know, I've been involved in investments myself where You know, you, you invest in things and they don't go to plan and, you know, kind of, you're, you're, you know, they're receiving negative, um, news about that.

Grant · 31:41So, you know, it's definitely something that keeps me awake at night. I don't always want to do a good job for the people who have backed us. And, um, yeah, as I said, we're thankful to I think that'd be all our, all our investors investors today would be very happy with, uh, kind of where we're at and what we've achieved.

Jason · 31:57Yeah, definitely not complaining there. Grant, uh,

Jason · 32:00very, very happy. Uh, Astrid, the little T's and C's there is that, uh, through future, uh, we do have a little shareholding in pay. com. au. Um, just fortunately. Thought you were one

Nick · 32:10of the cornerstones, were you? That's what I heard. Yeah, just

Jason · 32:13major shareholder. Um, Basically the podcast is just going to be my little hobby now and I don't have to work ever again.

Jason · 32:19Just kidding. Oh, we're

Grant · 32:20very thankful.

Jason · 32:22And I know I like what I do. I like working as, as accountants, uh, absolutely love what we do now, just for a bit of background for those at home, there's the tech fast 50 winners and that's where pay. com. au came second at a growth of 5, 063%. So not a small number there.

Jason · 32:38And I bring that into the question to say, You know, with that kind of, maybe it brings on some pressure. There's some huge growth here on year, maybe you raised 20, 30 million, but looking at the product over the last couple of years and thinking about innovation and technology and the speed of how things, you know, can come and go in, in certain tech markets where things get gobbled up, how, how can you

Jason · 33:00see the product evolving over the years?

Jason · 33:01You know, does it need to stay the same? Do you need to keep innovating and evolving? And, you know, is there anything you can share that gets you excited over the next couple of years for, for the product and innovation?

Grant · 33:10Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, it's probably one of my not biggest frustrations, but, you know, as we were saying before, prioritization, one of the things I struggle with the most is my, you know, trying to work out what of all the things we could be doing, what are, how are we going to try, you know, truncate that down into stuff that's actually achievable with the resources we've got, obviously, you know, if we raise another 20 million of capital, we can build out a kind of development team and do more stuff, which obviously we want to do, but you've got to get the results to, to do that.

Grant · 33:38But, um, you know, we. have a huge backlog of both ideas, but also product roadmap and initiatives that we want to, want to, uh, you know, kind of do and achieve. Um, so yeah, we've got a number of exciting things happening. You know, some are just high level ideas, whether they go ahead or not, you know, it's still to be determined, but we're working through kind of, you know, the business cases around

Grant · 34:00those, what the returns might be, what the Tech development side of things would look like, um, but they, you know, some of that is in the reward space about, you know, building out an exciting rewards proposition that's more seamless and automated.

Grant · 34:13Um, you know, things like, for example, having our own pay card where you could walk into any merchant, um, and redeem your pay reward points at any, you know, kind of Visa, MasterCard, accepting merchant. Merchant, which is pretty cool in real time, you know, be able to check the balance of your points and, you know, buy something in a shop that, you know, you couldn't, couldn't otherwise do with, with some points, which is pretty exciting, you know, a bit of water to go under the bridge in terms of, you know, what that, what that looks like and how that works, et cetera.

Grant · 34:41So that's, you know, Not definitive, but it's an exciting thing that we're, we're working on, you know, things like FX payments, um, receivables payments, some, some other kind of big initiatives. And they're the big kind of cool, you know, a couple of step out opportunities that we're working on. And, you know, every day our customers are feeding back information

Grant · 35:00around other things that they'd like within the platform, which, you know, don't sound so big and sexy, but you know, the more we build out the proposition to make that.

Grant · 35:08Payment experience, seamless, that rewards experience, seamless, we'll get customers using us more and, you know, spread the word more. Um, you know, in the early days, one of the biggest things I was, you know, stressed about was like, you know, you've got to build a product enough to test it and prove out, you know, kind of product market fit, but there's so many things we knew we needed to do and wanted to do.

Grant · 35:28And there's the balance of like, well, when do you launch it into market? When's it ready enough to put it in front of a customer. And I was always thinking, Oh, I want to do this, do this and this, but you can spend, you know, years building tech. And then, you know, get it out to customers and might not work.

Grant · 35:41So it's always been a fine balance of, you know, kind of getting stuff out to customers, getting them to use it. And then knowing that, you know, you're going to add to that build on it, which will bring in more customers over time. For example, one of the things we're working on at the moment is around dual author authorization.

Grant · 35:54Some people, um, you know, with their banking, um, apps have very strict rules in, within

Grant · 36:00their businesses around dual authorization, et cetera. Um, Like some, you know, kind of institutional business banks have, you know, we need to start to effectively operate like a bank from that perspective around, A, we already do from a cyber security and security perspective, but, you know, things like features like, you know, making sure dual authority on, on transactions and, and certain things and set people and set rules.

Grant · 36:21So, you know, that's a feature that's the guys are working on and will be coming very soon.

Jason · 36:25Even, even in my head, I've got like, I'm not in the business and you know, but I sit there going, Oh, like I'd love to be able to like tap and go like my. A card inside my Apple wallet that I could actually go and make a purchase for and have it set up to debit off my Amex, but it goes to my pay.

Jason · 36:41com points. So, you know, my brain ticks and I can only imagine if you're immersed in it every day, how many ideas and things people are coming up with in the environment you're working in. So now it's, it's cool.

Grant · 36:50And obviously you want to prioritize customer features, but then the other thing is when you're scaling up a tech business as well, you've got to like in the backend, the things that people don't see, you need to automate,

Grant · 37:00scale up all those types of things as well.

Grant · 37:02And it's a bit of a. You know, chicken and egg thing around how you, how you constantly balancing the development, the resource development into developing customer led features whilst also, you know, making it automated and seamless in the back to scalable in the, in the backend, you know, whether that's operational process, operational, or we've got a separate platform that runs our operations that, you know, our operations team in the background that are reviewing payments, you know, reconciling all that type of stuff.

Grant · 37:29That's actually a separate, separate platform, which they got, you know, in the early days that was just. Uh, part of the fronting customer platform.

Nick · 37:35It's cool stuff. It's a bit different to what we're, what I'm dealing with every day, making sure a lot of applications get filled in start to finish, but anyway, just, uh, if we could touch just briefly on the ATO stuff on, uh, I know some people question the whole point system and.

Nick · 37:50How does the ATO see it? Because you're spending business expenses to get points and then possibly, to Jace's point, using those points for a set

Nick · 38:00of golf clubs, which sounds pretty good to me. But, um, so, from what I understand, and Jace, you might chime in here, but the ATO's got some rulings on this, where there's People don't need to worry, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Jason · 38:15I think, uh, Grant, maybe you share your side for pay. com. au, you know, with the private rulings and whatnot, or the previous one that relied on, and then I might expand in a loose way as well.

Grant · 38:25Yeah, sure. First and foremost, before I answer that, I mean, there's a couple of things is like, you know, that rewards proposition can be used, you know, and, and is actively by a lot of customers in majority of cases used for, you know, business type expenditure as well.

Grant · 38:38So it's not all about, you know, using for personal, um, et cetera. So, so there's, there's that, that aspect, um, of it. I wanted to just highlight as well, but, um, but yeah, as, as you guys said, there's, um, we, we went, We've got a number of tax and legal advices around that just to make sure, you know, as a business and board, we want to make sure we're not,

Grant · 39:00you know, doing anything that's, that's not right.

Grant · 39:02So we've got a lot of people looking at it from that perspective and giving us the confidence that, you know, what we, what we do and the product we offer customers isn't, you know, you know. Breaking any, um, legislation rules around this type of stuff, but, um, to go directly to your point, I think, you know, there is, um, some tax rulings or guidance that they've talked specifically about rewards points, frequent fly points, et cetera.

Grant · 39:23I think it was back in 2004, Jason, you might be able to quote the exact number of, or, or reference, but I don't know it off the top of my head, but, um, there is a guidance that was released around, you know, tax rules. For, uh, for employees, you know, using points, uh, I guess from a personal, in a personal capacity, it was, um, you know, anything, I think they call it the safe harbors, 250, 000 points per year, um, per entity.

Grant · 39:50Um, and so, you know, obviously that's back in 2004 you know, index up. You know, kind of 20 years on and there's, you know, there's, there's

Grant · 40:00today's number for that. But, um, but that's kind of the, the, the point where, you know, the ATI have said, look, that's just, you know, it's not even something that we'd, we'd look at type thing.

Grant · 40:08I think beyond that, obviously that, you know, people who may get audited for this type of stuff may have some, some questions about that. Um, look, when I'm not specifically aware of any, um, customers who had any particular issues on that, but I think if you, you know, kind of generally operate around that, you Um, level you, you know, as I said, you sit within that safe harbor that the AGO is, um, kind of happy with.

Grant · 40:28But yeah, look, um, it is an area we understand people have those questions about it when obviously we're not tax advisors. Speak to Jason. He's the man that can answer that and give you some specific guidance. But, um, Yeah, we, we, we know customers have been through tech, you know, FBT audits, et cetera, and it's never been, never been an issue.

Grant · 40:46So

Jason · 40:47for anyone who's is like full nerd as me and wants to get into it, it's PSLA 2004 slash four. So it's a general, you'd have it. I knew you'd have it. So a bit of a ruling there and ultimately it talks

Jason · 41:00about, you know, rewards received under a consumer loyalty program. Um, basically if you can demonstrate the reward is received as part, not as part of income earning activity.

Jason · 41:08So you spending money on expenses, then there's basically, there's no connection to it needing to be taxed for FBT purposes. Same thing. If you give, if you give a flight reward to an employee, you know, as long as it's, you know, nice. In lieu of remuneration, again, it's just a, it's kind of like in FBT land, there's always these little things and you got to check through it.

Jason · 41:28But if I give someone a 250 gift card for employee of the month, it's under the 300 FBT limit, it's exempt from fringe benefits tax. So you kind of just got to apply some logic to it. If all of a sudden you were probably giving an employee a, you know, 5, 000 round the world, you know, business trip, and it had nothing to do with work.

Jason · 41:47Maybe potentially you might need to look into it and just go, you know, is there a tax implication, but again, have a look at the ruling, talk to your accountant, if it's not me and, um, just make sure you're all happy, but if not, um. It's still just a, an absolute

Jason · 42:00killer program to be able to get behind and, and get some benefits out of, um, love answering fun tax questions.

Jason · 42:05So we always kind of find a way to work into the numbers game. We'll take it back to a couple of fun, a couple of last fun questions for you, Grant, before we wrap up today. Um. Yeah. If I understand this correctly, points hack pay, uh, point hacks pay. com. au and then Zift, which is another startup. Um, I believe you guys all work in the same environment, if that is correct.

Grant · 42:25Correct.

Jason · 42:25You know, what's that environment like and what's getting you excited for the future? What's kind of something that's, you know, that you know about that you're up and about for?

Grant · 42:32Oh, that's a big question. Um, , first and foremost. Yeah, we, we are, we work out of a little hub. Our, um, our major investor and chairperson is the major shareholder in each of those businesses.

Grant · 42:43So we've got a really fun environment that we work in our office in, in Elstonwick. Um, so, yeah, no, it's good. I think the thing that excites me about that environment is that, you know. Um, Damien is a huge entrepreneur. He's got a million ideas every day, which is a great thing to be a part of.

Grant · 43:00Um, and you know, I think the collaboration across these different startups and, um, businesses is, is, is pretty cool.

Grant · 43:07Um, you know, whether that's, you know, marketing, et cetera, there's a lot of. you know, cross collaboration, whether it's data science, where you, you know, we've got a data science resource that kind of is across all the, all the different businesses and, you know, kind of pushing our own resource in that space and, you know, giving some guidance and suggestions.

Grant · 43:24And even for me, just, you know, someone to talk, talk to who's a specialist in that, in that space. Um, but yeah, they're all, you know, very techie, very data science driven, et cetera, which is, which is cool. And marketing, you know, we've got some marketing gurus in here you know, big. Part of our success has been the way we've, you know, delivered effective marketing, performance marketing, um, kind of in the, in that space.

Grant · 43:46So, um, yeah, I think that's, yeah, generally it's, it's pretty cool. There's what's exciting. I think that, you know, as you guys would know, AI is a big topic, um, you know, Constantly talked about it. You know, we're, we're working on, you know, what extra

Grant · 44:00new things we can do to be innovative. And even Nick and I've had separate conversations on, you know, how to, how do we leverage AI and, and what we do there.

Grant · 44:08Um, you know, we're working in our marketing and data cloud, um, solution at the moment around how we can bring, you know, AI and automation into, Even just the simple way we kind of create, uh, marketing audiences to automate and push into, you know, the, you know, the digital marketing, um, platforms, et cetera.

Grant · 44:28And, um, you know, kind of, uh, use templates, et cetera, to, you know, automate the, the process of building out a, a product. call it a personalized marketing email comms to our customers, um, which is, which is pretty cool, but there's so many different use cases for AI. It's a bit, you know, it's a bit of a minefield and, you know, a new area that everyone's struggling to, you know, battle, battle with, but, you know, we do have some cool resources internally that we, you know, kind of use that.

Grant · 44:54You mentioned Zift as a, as a business that's, you know, doing some pretty crazy cool stuff, um,

Grant · 45:00around price comparison for consumers, um, Uh, which, you know, they've got some, you know, kind of boffins down there that we, uh, we kind of, you know, leverage off and bounce some ideas off. So, yeah, I think that's, um, you know, some pretty exciting stuff in that space.

Jason · 45:14I was at a rooftop party for the Formula One and met Damien and, uh, I was, I was drinking a Corona and he pulled out his phone. He goes, have you seen this? SCAN app and I was like, nah, no idea. And he pulls out his phone, scans the barcode of my Corona and showed me all the air, like near us, where it was the cheapest place to get a slab of Corona's from just from scanning the barcode, I was like, you know what, in a time of like rising inflation, you know, costs going up, rent's going up, everything else.

Jason · 45:40I'm like, if, if people are looking for a deal and there are people out there that love looking for a deal, so little, little quiet shout out ZYFT if you haven't heard of it yet. Go and check it out. You can add it to your Google Chrome browser. So if you're an online shopper like Greg, and you're trying to buy the latest set of Nikes, chuck it in there.

Jason · 45:56Sorry, Nick, just going all pluggy. Just plugs

Nick · 45:59everywhere,

Nick · 46:00mate. I love how you've managed to get future advisory in here and no doubt you're invested in that too. So anyway, that's what we're here for.

Grant · 46:08We had a customer who redeemed some points for an investment in Zyft.

Jason · 46:12They may have been a future advisory client.

Jason · 46:14I think so. I wasn't sure I

Grant · 46:15should have mentioned that, but that was pretty cool. So that shows the flexibility of our rewards program. You can redeem for anything. Oh, that, that's

Jason · 46:21great. That leads well into Nick's question.

Nick · 46:23Yeah. So, so I think the final questions for the, for the day and yeah, you're right.

Nick · 46:27Perfect leading, but what's the craziest thing you've seen someone use their points for, and you know, there's some suggestions here that maybe someone has used points for gold bullion, golf clubs. Well, that's boring compared to gold bullion or an investment in another business. There's a divorce settlement is listed here.

Nick · 46:45So, um, what's the most out there thing you've seen as far as someone redeeming points?

Grant · 46:51I'm not aware of a divorce settlement going through, but everything else, everything else you mentioned, I've, uh, you know, I have come across those, so I think you've pretty much, sounds like you've been

Grant · 47:00worded up, up there.

Grant · 47:01I think, yeah, we have had a gold bullion redeemed, um, we've had private jet flights, um, up in Europe and in America, um, you know, we basically effectively, you know, managed the booking of the, the private jet and obviously the payment was facilitated through the person's Reward points. Um, Yeah, there's some, some cool stuff.

Grant · 47:22Obviously the investment we've had golf clubs, um, yeah, 80 percent of our points are probably redeemed through the airline partners. Um, but in terms of those, uh, innovative, cool, different things. Oh, the, the, one of the first things that we ever had, which was, um, Which was pretty cool, which was a customer who had quite a lot of points.

Grant · 47:39They, they were deemed for, you know, I think the, you know, round numbers equivalent of something like 80, 000 worth of whiskey, but it was four bottles. So some pretty, uh, I didn't even know that existed to be, I'm not a whiskey guy, but, um, But I was like, when I had to facilitate that, I was like, Ooh, that's interesting.

Grant · 47:56That, you know, 25, 000 plus bottles

Grant · 48:00of, uh, bottles of whiskey. You didn't want to break them in, uh, in the courier to the customer.

Jason · 48:04No, I think as long as they were drunk in the office too, that should be okay. From a, from a tax benefit point of view, just drink them in the office, uh, make sure it was consumed on premises.

Jason · 48:12Happy days.

Grant · 48:13Yeah, exactly.

Jason · 48:14One last major one here for you. And, uh, hopefully. You know, it's not, not too hard to, to digress into, but you start a company like pay. com. au, you got some crazy brains involved, you scaled fast, you know, from day one, was there an exit plan, um, or, or the talk around an exit plan and, you know, the importance of having an exit plan.

Jason · 48:33So for you, what does that look like or how important has that been along the way to, to keep an exit plan in mind?

Grant · 48:38Yeah, look, it's a, it's a great question. And I think, you know, it's, uh, it's not a primary driver for existing or what we do, but obviously for, you know, myself coming from a mergers and acquisitions background and the guys who are on the board, you know, know all about it.

Grant · 48:51They've, you know, exited businesses before, or as I said, you know, being involved in the, in this space. So, you know, it's something that, you know. We have ideas

Grant · 49:00and thoughts about, but it's not, you know, we don't make decisions based on, on that obviously. But I think, you know, there's, we have all options always on the table.

Grant · 49:08Um, you know, we've got to deliver as a business first and foremost for our shareholders. Um, and we're building something pretty exciting, delivering some great results with, you know, huge growth, et cetera. You know, I'm not going to go into the details of what that might look like, but you know, we, as you know, at some stage our shareholders will expect some sort of, um, exit, I'd imagine.

Grant · 49:27Um, and you know, there, there may be one, whether that's, you know, be part of a bigger, bigger thing in a similar space, whether that's in payments or, you know, I mean, we've seen what Afterpay have obviously done with their, how they've kind of evolved. You know, there's obviously the public markets as an option, um, and you know, there's multiple options to be honest.

Grant · 49:47It's not something we sit and talk about all day, you know. We know that eventually something, you know, is likely or probably will happen just to, you know, take the business to the next level.

Nick · 49:56It's just good to get different businesses on, you know, we're, we're in

Nick · 50:00SME land, um, You know, let's not beat around the bush, we're dealing with very different, um, different day to day things and a business like Grant's is so, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's really cool and interesting and at the same time if we, we can add value to our, uh, loyal following of SMEs, um, have a look at pay.

Nick · 50:19com. au, uh, I think, um, I think people should definitely do it. And the only other thing I'll mention is there is a business in the States cause I've got confused here called pay. com. So people need to make sure they're looking at pay. com. au I'll sort it on Victor Hovland. Who's a golfer. He's got pay. com sponsoring grants, uh, grants sponsored Victor Hovland.

Nick · 50:40But, um, so yeah, just need to clarify to, to put the, the. au in there. If I was sponsored by

Grant · 50:45Victor Hovland I would want to be on the Joe Rogan show or the Tim Ferriss show. Very happy to be on the numbers.

Jason · 50:52It's pretty similar comparison. I'm sure we're getting similar numbers. Um, everyone. Thanks for tuning in.

Jason · 50:58Uh, welcome. Thank you. Grant

Jason · 51:00Austin for joining us. Um, as Nick said, if you haven't checked it out, pay. com. au go and have a look, connect with Grant Austin on LinkedIn as well. Grant's probably happy to hear from you. If you want to reach out and have a chat about all things, uh, pay. com. au and business. Uh, but until next time spends money, get rewards game over. ---